A nuclear bomb
"Based on this framework, we have achieved high-throughput, low-latency large-scale inference services for DeepSeek V4.1 Flash. Currently, the service throughput of a single cluster is 155 trillion tokens/day, and the overall revenue is $38 per card per hour (at off-peak pricing)"
Interesting that the DHS "Exclusion and Removal Order #2026-01" that was made public yesterday was actually released July 24th, 2026 and appears to have taken effect then. Agencies would have started pulling deepseek at that time. Which means it's likely DS became aware of the memo around then.
The release of this repo hours after the DHS order is a tactical move they started preparing when the DHS order was issued almost 3 months ago, and they timed publishing the repo right as the order hit the federal register.
DHS: "China bad and scary. Don't send them data."
DS: "You don't have to. Happy xmass kids."
> The release of this repo hours after the DHS order is a tactical move they started preparing when the DHS order was issued almost 3 months ago, and they timed publishing the repo right as the order hit the federal register.
What does DS achieve with this "tactical move"? Or, are you saying this is a tactical move from a higher level (Chinese gov interests)?
“ Or, are you saying this is a tactical move from a higher level (Chinese gov interests)?”
What country produces all of the ASICs used in contemporary bitcoin mining?
The faster we get to a good enough open model, the sooner it gets burned to hardware, and the sooner the transition to (relatively) low tech, low margin, high volume cards to run it on …
… and those are built in China.
That’s part of the equation but there’s almost certainly interest in the open models guiding information trends for the interests of the Chinese government as well. So not only to help their economy in a variety of ways, but to help undermine the US AI efforts in the process and put them finger on the scale of what models ultimately do output.
US wants to ban non us models from as many places as possible. This move enables them to get users in more places.
making AI bubble burst (even if it is just frontier labs that got hit) while chinese companies keep making money off cheap AI would be massive economical hit to US
I do not understand this. Was the order secret for all this time?
Except this is also banned under the DHS order. The order bans "information technology products and services developed by Hangzhou DeepSeek Artificial Intelligence Co., Ltd", and more pressingly, "third-party products and services developed using DeepSeek implementations".
Does that mean US labs are banned from using or even learning from this? Assuming they still want to be used by the government.
Something not being allowed to learn from hasn't stopped them before
It's not US labs that it targets, but just US gov't civilian agencies.
... so far.
They last part is impossible to enforce really without forcing audits on everything.
Not sure why you're being downvoted. It's very clear to me in the order that even the open weights would be forbidden, even served through vllm or sglang etc.
Next would be just saying no Chinese inference engines.
Probably wouldn't have been many agencies using DS to begin with anyways.
That's Kami Kaze for US frontier labs. There's no way from here for them towards trillion dollar valuations.
That's strategic sabotage to say the least.
Ban all open weight models! Cried the VCs.
I don't gamble, but if you really believe this, there's apparently some serious money to be made.
https://polymarket.com/event/anthropics-valuation-end-of-oct...
These have not really budged (yet) on this news.
> That's Kami Kaze for US frontier labs. There's no way from here for them towards trillion dollar valuations.
Those valuations are a scam, they have always been a scam, like an updated version of the collateralised debt obligations (CDOs) from 2008 [0]
[0] https://www.theguardian.com/business/2010/apr/18/goldman-sac...
I rewatched The Big Short recently, and all I could think about was AI labs.
I saw the same kind of comments when the first Deepseek model was initially released. However the relevance that investors assign to something like this does not seem to match the excitement expressed here.
I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
> I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
They'd be wrong. Especially about Europe. Many companies are in a bind about this: they can't upload their confidential files to a service provider but they do want AI. So right now they end up with a choice: do nothing, breach their contracts, use a service provider that pinky promises not to share their data (which we have already seen they will violate) and run local models.
The latter is the reason you can't buy powerful GPUs for reasonable prices because a local model (GLM 5.3, DS 4, etc) + some hardware is all you need to solve the problem in a way that avoids the legal issues.
You can’t buy gpus at reasonable prices because US frontier labs are spending nearly a trillion dollars this year on data center buildout, not because some mid tier European insurance co needs to serve deepseek
Wow, whole pallets!?
There are roughly 70 GW of datacenters under construction in the US right now, and a GW is roughly 500k GPUs, so 35 million GPUs.
You can’t buy gpus at reasonable prices because US frontier labs are spending nearly a trillion dollars this year on data center build
Its not just the US ... Where do you think all those 5090's end up? Its just crypto mining all over again. Most people do not realize that China was the biggest crypto mining operation because of its cheap electricity and people willingness to take big risks.
The same happens now also, with people buying up 5090's (and lower class cards) in bulk, to strap into AI rigs. With Nvidia discontinuing the 32GB 5090s, we already see pressure on the lower end cards that had a better price / performance for a while now.
China will do China things *lol* ... People there are just more willing to take bigger gambles (and the cheap elec helps a ton). But that is also a factor why a lot of consumer level hardware gets under pressure. Its not just the supply chain to the enterprise market that is eating a lot for AI.
That does not matter so much anymore, when Huawei starts selling those NPUs for a fraction of the NVIDIA price. It's all downhill from there on for OpenAI, Anthropic and NVIDIA.
> US frontier labs are spending nearly a trillion dollars this year
They are not, not even close. I wonder if you're aware how money is being "spent" between Nvidia and US AI corporations!
The other choice is AWS Bedrock, if it happens to have the model you're interested in. They do have GLM-5.3. They don't have DS-4 or 4.1 yet, and updates are intermittent at best, but they're already on the trusted provider list for anywhere large enough to be interesting.
Depends on the parameters of "acceptable", but they do offer inference in non-US zones. If the company is already on AWS for meaningful workloads with sensitive data (which is not uncommon), they've already been through the hard part.
That being said it's not quite as simple as would be ideal, you do need to check whether there's an additional EULA on your specific model choice.
You do realize there are hundreds of datacenters in Europe and the US that rent GPUs to European companies, right? You don't have to buy a GPU or even figure out how to use one. Pay for SageMaker.
Europe isn't in a bind. They can, and have been, running open weights on inference providers around the world. And they pay a premium for US models and accept its risk for the same reason they remain US allies. The cost is worth it.
Yes, I do. Not sure what in my comment prompted you to write all this.
> I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
Quite failure by someone to assume that EU businesses would use US over Chinese, based on the current political atmosphere. US causes even bigger concerns than Chinese labs.
i am amazed they expect everyone else to see the chinese as these fiction-like evil corrupt dictators
Exactly. Imagine China's dictator would kidnap some other foreign president just to steal their country's natural resources. Or if he just starts a war against some Middle East country to take the focus away from some pedophile scandal.
Thanks God nothing like that could happen in the US, thanks to its constitution, courts and armed informed citizens. That's why I'm putting all my eggs in that basket.
lol that's so false and uninformed it's hilarious
It is flabbergasting, indeed. I'm no friend of China, because it is an evil dictatorship, but as a business man I prefer dealing with China over the USA nowadays. At least China is predictable, even in its corruption.
>I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
Correct. And they're likely very correct in the belief.
When people on the internet claim that frontier labs are done for because Chinese open-weight models exist, they really don't appreciate that the people spending the money do not want to hear "we can just run it cheaper ourselves!" Any software engineer with even a few years of experience knows that phrase is absurd, and executives are simply not interested in the risks associated with such an endeavour when they can just buy the solution outright.
Consumers will have access to open-weight models just like how consumers have access to Linux. But you can just go look at the market share of operating systems to see why something being free and openly available doesn't matter to executives who just wants to get things done and is willing to pay a premium to a trusted business to do the work for them.
And none of that even touches the fact that these frontier labs have only ever been in-front of open-weight alternatives. Again, if you're an executive, and you're questioning if you should pay a premium for a better version of a tool which you presume is important for your company's ability to compete, then the answer is immediately obvious: pay the premium or risk falling behind competition who is willing to pay the premium. And when you're talking about global companies who can pay these bills without it being significant enough to even show up on a quarterly financial statement, then it's an obvious sell.
>But you can just go look at the market share of operating systems to see why something being free and openly available doesn't matter to executives who just wants to get things done and is willing to pay a premium to a trusted business to do the work for them.
That's why most of the internet runs on Windows IIS rather than Linux or BSD. That's why everyone here is running a VM on their Mac that hosts Windows containers to do development in.
> executives are simply not interested in the risks associated with such an endeavour when they can just buy the solution outright
I think you're missing two things here.
1. The margin by which a hosted product is operationally superior to self hosting an open source alternative is precisely calibrated. The SaaS provider has no reason to invest beyond the point were they can reliably make the sale.
2. Self hosted open source solutions come with a big bonus re: the ability to read and modify their code. But realistically ain't nobody got time for that.
AI upsets the apple cart in both cases. It's now far easier to manage locally hosted open source solutions, which means that in order to maintain the favorable effort ratio for making a sale, products must all get significantly better than their open source alternatives. That's gonna be a slow process involving innovative product owners. AI is getting better faster than it can happen.
Also, since AI is trained on the open source code, it's very good at integrating open source components. Previously nobody was bothering to gain that kind of mastery over their tools but now you can leverage it right out of the gate--but only if you're using projects that are in your assistant's training data. Maintaining a moat around a software product has always been orthogonal to making your product useful, but as we lean on AI more, it'll get worse. The more you protect your IP, the more its usability degrades. This was always true, but now it doubly true.
Executives may want to pay for a solution to their problems. But the companies that might provide those solutions no longer have a sustainable path.
The future of software is as a tool, not as a product or a service.
There are times I wonder if the "just use China!" sentiment is astroturfing. That'd certainly explain why there's a lot of calls for that in the face of China's long and storied history of hacking Western networks.
It's generally understood that for better or for worse, if you're working on anything (not just IT) that is security-sensitive, you're going to have restrictions on what can and cannot be done that may seem absurd at first, but hold up to scrutiny once more thoroughly examined. I would say that you don't even need to thoroughly examine this particular restriction. I have prod data at work that I can't give to humans outside of the United States. Not in India, not in the UK, not even in Canada. Clients insist on these clauses in contracts. This has been a known practice across many fields in this industry for decades.
Now we're suddenly seeing a chorus of posts saying that we should loosen up and send data to a non-human intelligence that was developed by a known geopolitical rival with a history of malicious intrusion on Western networks. Where does that come from?
> they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models
This is exactly right. The only AI that matters from an investor perspective is the AI that is built into your phone, your car, ships with Windows and Mac, and built into legal and business tools like Lexus Nexus and Salesforce.
Everything else is hobby.
That's why OpenAI hard pivoted from consumer tech into enterprise ?
The only AI that makes money is enterprise. Being open weights/self-hostable is a huge win before the pricing even enters the conversation, but pricing is also adding a ceiling on what US labs get to charge. And stuff like powering other software also works better with fine-tunes, hence legal models, etc.
No worries, our corrupt politicians will soon force them to give all of our data and money to the USA, as usual.
Also the concern that open weights models could contain dormant adversarial behavior (i.e. they are sleeper agents) is more popular amongst decision makers than one would think.
In that regard it was a clever marketing move by Anthropic to release their paper "Sleeper Agents: Training Deceptive LLMs that Persist Through Safety Training" ....
Well, they do. So you review the output. Models should be treated as juniors, not a line of code or legalese they write should be used without review by a human, not another AI.
> In that regard it was a clever marketing move by Anthropic to release their paper "Sleeper Agents: Training Deceptive LLMs that Persist Through Safety Training" ....
I find such claims a bit like if 3M/DuPont released a paper on the carcinogen dangers of PFAS and someone said this was "a clever marketing move".
Like, great, this can have hidden dangers we only learn about years after it's irreversible… how does this make "our"* companies the good guys?
A lot of us were already concerned about backdoors mandated by the US government, but that was just encryption and this is everything that AI ends up being able to do.
* in the sense of "the G7" until the start of this year, because why would other nations prefer us over China in the first place, and thanks to Trump vs. Canada, Greenland, Iceland also now the rest of the G7 has to treat seriously the possibility that the US is more of an expansionist threat than China is.
I love how Anthropic has created Frankensteins monster security wise and then pointing at it and yelling "DANGEROUS" haha
burned? your business leaders willingly sold out your manufacturing industries to make just a little bit more money, knowing itd devastate many. It was your own who sold out your working class time and time again, not "big boogeyman china" pulling the strings.
I don’t know about investors, but EU businesses with regulatory requirements are favoring EU-hosted Chinese open-weight model over US closed-weight services.
to be honest anything built into my phone, car, ships with mac is a hobby
what's important is where big enterprise point their budgets. and there we agree, it's not to chinese models (as hopeful as I am that we can avoid a duopoly and great local models)
There were pretty specific rumors about IPOs happening early this year, up to apparent insider bets on prediction platforms. Don't you think the apparent delays in IPOs could have something to do with the open weights/open source competition? The monetary conditions (interest rates,...) were better early in the year, arguably predictably so, so what would be your alternative explanation why they chose to postpone?
Many big investors may be too deep into this, so they prefer to extend and pretend rather than cut their (potentially massive) losses.
So, they choose to believe, lacking a better strategy. They will also try to lobby their belief into existence.
> the relevance that investors assign
I think there is also a perhaps the need to assign air-quotes to "investors" when talking about the US markets.
There's too much fluff and noise there. Too much (over)leveraged trading. Too much speculation.
What the real investors think is hidden behind the actions of the speculative traders.
> I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models
The Chinese models are open-weight. You can download them and run them on your own servers. Or you can outsource to Mistral, Privatemode or any of the many other US/EU inference hosters.
So the "security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns" arguments are effectively non-existent. And whatever argument does possibly remain, also applies equally to Anthropic, OpenAI & co.
If you believe those investor, I assume you mortgage and bet all your wealth on it. SpaceX? Anthropic? Chinese has talents, electricity and Huawei. I really believe those investors are tulip blind to pile money into those western AI. China even now world number 3 ssd+ram ahead of SK Hynix. So armageddon of RAM SSD LLM model at dirt cheap price. And as time progress, large ram and small gpu will be built into handphone (which again dominate by Chinese).
The US will move to ban it for most major businesses in some capacity.
You're entire company would become ineligible for gov contracts if you have use DeepSeek. Something like that.
> I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
European business users (+ consumers) can access GLM-5.3 via Mistral.ai hosting. (with GDPR)
Yes, but that does not preclude the model from containing adversarial payloads so you still have to review everything.
Of course the same goes for any other model that you haven't trained up yourself.
This isn't true, especially not with the inference engine becoming public, now you can build your on models on the same or similar architecture and ship massive gains on top of these stacks.
I think people don't realize the Salesforce SAP Palantir would love to ship these models, and they have/are shipping them.
The threat of exfilteration of data via these models is high but it's nowhere near as high as the margins.
For instance if you could cut your ai input bill by over 90% would you do it? Can you put some of that extra margin say 10-20% to make it more secure.
I know of atleast 10 fortune 500 companies that are entirely planning to or have moved to Chinese models for a large portion of their work.
It's insane people in finance are delusional enough to think that won't happen.
Maybe Govt will try to de-risk with bans on using open models but I don't think that's going to work at scale, people will literally spawn labs to launder DeepSeek/GLM models into a US model by some novel training etc approach or something.
I still don't think that it's as much a kami-kaze rather it's an attempt to normalize the world around the Chinese stack.
If DeepInfer is supported by everyone, it will be much easier to export stuff aka hardware that only supports it for now or is optimized for it.
Assume china starts selling hyper optimized Asics for inference at some point.
This feels like a race to the bottom as soon as possible because they have much lower costs, if there is a Wipeout in AI Labs in US chinese labs are largely insulated, and they can hopefully buy Nvidia chips for cheap if that does happen.
If they are open sourced, it means any random data center could host it domestically and AI becomes a utility.
Europe is going to be just as worried about using US models for large parts of government related functions and they're going to feel alot better about open source self-hosted chinese models than US models which can literally get turned off on a whim by Trump. They'd prefere home grown models if they can, but if they can't they'll go self-hosted and that'll be Chinese at this rate.
Exactly and that is precisely what is happening.
Seems a toss up whether Europe trusts US or China more.
Hardly a toss up based on this. Kind of stunning to see how much damage has been done in less than two years.
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2026/07/15/people-in-many...
> I think they do not believe that big corporations in the US or Europe would actually use chinese models in their business operations due to security, regulatory and/or business continuity concerns.
Well they are wrong, I'm at a large EU startup and they are currently considering Deepseek as their default model, Opus/Fable would still be available for complex tasks.
There's very little understanding of business operations on HN, especially outside the tech echo chamber. The "software will eat the world" mindset.
Based on HN comments, every company would be running Gentoo and developing line of business applications in Haskell or OCaml.
I concur. Everything is such a hard left turn.
The reality is what ever better and cheaper is where the money flows. Especially from an international corporation perspective.
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That's exactly what people said when Deepseek V3 was released. Two years later the valuations roughly have quadrupled.
"valuations" are irrational and make dot com _valuations_ look like a miniature caricatures
no one has had to pay back any of the loans yet. the valuations right now mean precisely nothing.
if these hold a year after an IPO then we can talk.
"the market can stay irrational longer than you can remain solvent"
> That's strategic sabotage to say the least.
It is clear from the beginning that the Chinese Open Model are a proxy for economic warfare. Anyway their singular goal is to dethrone US monopoly on SOTA model and burn all the economic hype and investments. If this strat works, which we will see after Anthropic/OAI IPO, we'll be in for an interesting ride
I am of course eager to pay needlessly more to support poor Anthropic/OpenAI.
Well, what can I say? If you play dirty, then so can everyone else. The way I see it, consumers are the real winners here. Just another variation of classic competition. If such open models didn't exist, then make no mistake, OpenAI and Anthropic would be making sure you are bleeding dry with your wallet without much innovation.
> It is clear from the beginning that the Chinese Open Model are a proxy for economic warfare.
I mean, what would you expect? Like USA isn't openly planning to weaponize their current AI primacy [1, 2].
[1] https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/2025/07/prom...
[2] https://www.whitehouse.gov/wp-content/uploads/2025/07/Americ...
It's the USA, you can just ban it.
https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2026-21447.pdf
No, that isn't going to happen. The US can't afford to lose the AI race and US companies that can't compete will get thrown under the bus and replaced with those that can.
The DHS order only bans buying DeepSeek products directly (e.g. doing inference on their China hosted servers). It does not apply to open weights at all. And DeepSeek just gave their response to the DHS order.
No it doesn't. It bans:
"third-party products and services developed using DeepSeek implementations".
So gov can't use western inference of DeepSeek either.
"DeepSeek implementation" in this context means a third-party product that uses a DeepSeek product, e.g. the DeepSeek API. This does not apply to open data running on a non-affiliated third-party inference provider.
I agree with you - but there is also an ambiguity, the text of the the order also seems to ban any products coded with DeepSeek
I don't understand basic legal writing, you you may very well be right. I would be nervous about fulfilling a contract or building a company with, for example, my code base, which is heavily built with deepseek
Yeah, but they can't ban the rest of the world from using it :)
You could claim you're the more ethical of the two countries and hope people boycott it
ahahahah
it would take a regime that doesn't bomb girl schools for that to be effective
That works. But make sure you don't say it outright because that might make people stop and think about it for a moment.
That's right, they could
Exactly, the EU only deals with ethical countries that support Ukraine
ahahahah
Isn’t this a ban on it being used by the state, rather than people/civilians?
For now
From government and regulated places perhaps but a large portion will not care
Thats like sticking your head in the sand :)
It's a project based on vLLM, explain why you consider it a total game changer?
That’s why we will probably see Fable 5.5 this evening.
US companies are throwing money at the problem, and considering how good Opus 5.5 is I’m not too concerned about them.
If logic was in vogue then this would be true and SpaceX wouldn't be worth 2T dollars
Considering how absurdly far ahead of everyone else SpaceX is, 2T seems low, and is more of a testament to how immature the space market itself is at this time.
If SpaceX was reset to 2016, they would still be ahead of everyone else even today. Their deployed capabilities today are ahead of the plans of most of their competitors.
China is catching up there too.
Anyway, where's the revenue from space going to come from? Obviously not data centres now that Deepseek is commoditising inference.
The telecom business? Amazon is catching up there and Europe/the rest of the world is racing to build capabilities to not be dependent on Musk.
even if they are far ahead, where does the revenue come from? current market size is like 20-40 billion annually.. even if it grows to 2x it's still a long time until that would justify the valuation.
but perhaps you are thinking that starlink is the key? sure probably a bigger market - but any market it accesses is bound to eventually prefer ground lines.
so the only way to justify the valuation is if the AI side of the business becomes the most dominant AI business
VC and valuation (alone) backed success has never been dependent on a business or product being good. All that is needed is finding the bag holder(s), and the way our economy and financial systems are designed that's the core competancy of this system.
Can you explain how this removes their moat? Genuine question, I'm not sure I understand enough about LLMs to get how an open source inference engine undermines them.
Today the closed-source giants maintain a substantial cost-per-token advantage due to proprietary inference tricks like speculative decoding kernels, ultra-optimized FlashAttention derivatives, multi-GPU pipeline orchestration and dynamic prefix-caching algorithms.
I'm not sure whether the DeepSeek's open-sourced inference engine does all of these, but it appears that plenty of inference tricks have just been revealed for the open source community to learn from and start improving upon.
So... this makes it easier for someone in the position to run chatgpt class models as a service to get similar returns to openAI/anthropic, if I got you.
And I imagine this engine is by default mostly just deepseek compatible and inference engines are not universally applicable to all models?
It sounds significant for competition but I'm not sure how it sinks Anthropic/openAI. Presumably they still have their frontier models, the training data they're vacuuming from current users and access to hardware to serve at a ridiculous scale, right?
What is the outlook for the hyperscalers?
I think for me it's more the possibility of the ideas here being incorporated in other Opensource projects (vllm, llama.cpp, or in the architecture choices of the models themselves)
Deepseek manages to be ridiculously cheap and efficient with prompt caching, i spent 550M~ (1.9b input cache miss, 1.7b output) tokens and it cost me 5~ bucks, that would be ~150 bucks on Opus 5.5, if i ran that workload in parallel that would be $50 vs $1500, e.i. i wouldn't want to subagent heavily with anthropic models.
now imagine Kimi K4 or GLM 5.5 with those cost savings
I think you’re correct, although suggesting that open AI is a trickle drown of AI companies is a bit naive.
But the key point is that something good enough always attracts more interest and contributions because a productive outcome is very realistic and tangible.
Open Weight models and competing open source inferences engines massively undermine monopolies; in theory at least.
See how cloud is easy to divest and “nationalise”.
All of those are in open-source engines. I'm not convinced they have that much of an advantage.
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When the model is fungible and the switching cost is near zero (business logic lies in the harness), then there really isn't a moat for models.
What moat?
It is, and always has been, data contracts. Which is why the hyperscalars are a more likely candidate to take American frontier business than Chinese vendors.
I can click a button in Azure foundry and run open weight models that are approved through my compliance and procurement teams.
I don’t know how open sourcing this stuff helps deepseek but it means I’m getting ever better and cheaper models so I’m fine with it.
Well, whatever real or perceived moat Openai/anthropic had. OP claims this open source inference engine reduces their chances of high valuation, I'm assuming this is due to their in house engine being something they could use as differentiation before?
That is probably what has been the most fascinating part of this AI/LLM boom, the moat was apparently never the technology. It has been very much like nuclear energi (and weapons), once you know how to do it, it's not that difficult. It's still fairly hard, but you can do it. The moat has been the funding for the infrastructure and if that dries up you're in trouble.
Yeah what moat is the right question to ask.
I've been trying to find an answer to that, too. The best I've got right now is this:
Moat-like things going for them:
- access to the US government (for huge inflated government contracts as a source of free capital, having the competition banned, having their products legally mandated, getting other preferential treatment, having foreign governments bullied into granting similar advantages)
Too unsustainable, too fragile, too small:
- Strong brands: Brand loyalty seems like a pretty insignificant factor in AI right now
- Semi-exclusive hardware access, RAM buyouts: Unsustainable even in the short term
- Lock-in effects: Their models aren't very stable across versions, or very unique, and switching providers is about as easy as it can be in a highly competitive market.
- Exclusive technology that is important, advanced and hard to replicate to a degree that would materially set them apart and justify potentially much higher cost. Maybe I'm missing something here, but a lot of the claims they make to that end fall apart even on light scrutiny (due to things like test sets that are small, hand-picked and clearly overfitted on, or broad general claims that cannot be substantiated). I'm getting the feeling they don't have anything that materially sets them apart at all, but that's seems impossible to measure in any meaningful way, so who knows, they might have something here.
In theory, this can allow a small US lab to compete with O/A/G and take marketshare from them with small open models deployed centrally or (and this is think is the real moat) on-prem for enterprises.
I wouldn't say yet its Kami Kaze.
The overall market will still be big, very big, if it replaces real people or augments every single worker.
Some contracts will go to your local provider (US Gov, etc.).
And there is still a moat between them and DeepSeek.
As long as i can afford it, i use Opus.
I'm not bound by it and switching is very fast
No, that's open source and it will be an accelerator for everyone, instead of a small advantage kept by a few. Even the frontier labs benefit. I'd argue (like I did when the initial DeepSeek was released), that the AI market *needs* to those inference breakthrough.
It's crazy that a ~400 person side project by a Chinese firm can put up such a fight.
All other models are also either by <1k labs or side hustles by tech companies who are not particularly known for LLMs
Their success is subsidized heavily by distillation, and even then, the Big Labs are no more than an OOM larger.
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Not really. Anthropic’s headcount isn’t huge, and only a subset of their employees are working on the frontier. It’s also easier when you’re a follower.
Where are the competitor to the big frontier labs? The Chinese providers are demonstrating everything can be done cheaper and practically identical. I'm surprised upstarts aren't showing up.
Deepseek came out of a hedge fund, right? Do they just bet against US stock and release for free a pile of stuff that basically shatters them? I never seen anyone saying that, but it would be an awesome business model.
I hope more hedge funds start doing that. Basicaly funding open development to profit from tanking uptight super serious American stocks, to fund even more open development.
If you can't beat them, give the common folk means to skip them and profit from their fall.
Do not under estimate the retardation of investors
I don't see how this proposition holds. It's just part of an inference engine for serving DS4.1 Flash. Which vLLM and SGlang can already do. Less efficiently, I'm sure, but on much broader hardware, and with other models in the mix.
People will take the novel bits here and port them to the above. The community as a whole will benefit. Including infrastructure engineers inside OpenAI and Anthropic.
But a lot of what's in here is already in published papers out of DeepSeek already.
Sure, any day now DeepSeek is going to destroy the valuation of OpenAI and Anthropic. I've been hearing this since DeepSeek first launched in Jan 2025, 21 months ago. And with every new model generation, both open and closed, I hear a chorus of "this is now good enough!". And then I hear it again for the next generation.
Meanwhile OpenAI has grown their revenue like 10x and Anthropic has grown theirs like 65x in that same time period.
There's no cap on what you can do with frontier intelligence, nor how much of it you can use. Yes, DS and other open weight models will continue to grow like crazy (as long as they can source compute), but so will the frontier labs. I ran like 20 agents overnight last night on Opus, Fable, Sol, and Astra last night, trying to use up quota before my weekly reset, and I'd gladly have done 10x that much and used agents 10x more intelligent if I could have. And in six months I probably will.
how? openai can copy some of the ideas on top of their own. Smaller labs gain this tech without much development, but is isn't like they will magically beat frontier labs. Is a smaller deal than you think vs kami kaze.
TARIFFS! LOL
That’s a bingo
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Whatever the consequences, I have to admit China has understood that all those are raw materials and that open sourcing everything will help growing their economy (as a whole).
The worst idea was to build corporations providing services with AI. It was an extension of the latest 50 years model, which is about to crumble. Now, we have our revolution. (Ok, ok, I am a little bit too enthusiastic, I now need a fallout shelter).
> ...open sourcing everything will help growing their economy (as a whole).
Most Chinese models are no longer open source. Qwen, MinMax, and GLM are transitioning to weights-available models, leaving only Xiaomi and DeepSeek in the open-source space.
It doesn't matter anyway. Weights aren't IP so the licenses are bunk.
This is just like linux and the larger open source movement. It liberates closed source code that should be open. In the future we will look back at this like we do the start of linux.
Treating AI like microsoft office subscriptions is really the losing model, at least in the long run.
Some open model might be Linux, none of them will be Chinese though.
You're kidding yourself if you think the moment they get an upper hand or better models they won't close everything down
It’s really hard to vilify the Chinese now on this and make it stick! So far, they seem to be championing openness and freedom on this front, which considering the nature of the technology, is a huge deal!
If they change their stance later, we’ll criticize them the same.
If the Chinese government has anything to say about it, which in China they typically do, they won't be able to close everything down since the official stance is to be more open than closed.
Not really. The official stance is likely to be the dominant supplier of hardware and models to run on it. And the models will need to be refreshed every so often as world evolves, especially if it evolves quicker. Global south will be buying Ascends soon. And EU will eventually follow as well or bleed money to US. Selling hardware to run freely available models in itself is sufficient and way easier to enforce than that someone won't pirate the model. Can't pirate the GPU.
Relevant: Deepseek reports its Revenue per GPU per hour at off peak prices (38$) [reddit link] https://www.reddit.com/r/DeepSeek/comments/1xanexq/deepseek_...
Also cool (from the translated screenshot since original is in Chineese https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/2095560295930508953)
> the DeepSeek V4.1 Flash inference system has established three goals
> 1-..... 2-..... 3. Supports retaining KVCache for more than 72 hours
This is awesome
Supporting Huawei Ascend 950 NPUs with open source inference code has huge implications in the global AI hardware market. Imagine if all smaller labs now can build on top of this stack and add increasing support for more compatible hardware , software and models. This could seriously challenge NVidias death grip. Although inference is still only a part of all AI workloads and open sourcing training on Huawei chips would be even bigger.
Yeah, the first place my mind went was that this is an incredible on-boarding / marketing effort for the Huawei hardware.
I thought that inference was now the majority of AI workload, not training.
in terms of raw token throughput and serving users it is, but in terms of R&D and long term lab capabilities, training is still the goose that lays the golden egg
too bad two golden eggs are required to put the goose in a position to lay a golden egg
I must say this is the sort of war I can get behind, where one side seem to be offering us ever fluffier socks and back rubs and the other shouts into the wind that only their flavor of wholesale intellectual theft is moral.
DeepSeek is truly making a difference on many levels, but the one most refreshing is how they just deliver once again with no fanfare or drama. Not even a website. Just hand us over the goods for free the DeepSeek way.
Lot of comments proclaiming it’s over for Anthropic and OpenAI, but none really explaining why. Many replies asking why and being wholesale ignored. Love to see it.
The frontier labs are currently at point where they are essentially fighting for smaller and smaller piece of the pie.
The amount of tasks open models are just fine for increases every month, so there is just less and less tasks where you need frontier models.
This achieves 2 things:
* companies that might have reservations about chinese models having training backdoor are getting tools to train its own * the tricks deepseek uses to make building them faster can now be used by more companies, increasing competition even further.
So to answer the question: The pie is already shrinking, and that just makes it even faster
Over maybe not. However, it does increase competition possibilities, right? Both of them have a pretty good head start though!
This month I changed my Claude Max Subscription to DeepSeek API. V4.1 Flash is fast and perfect for everything and refuses to almost nothing.
Hope DeepSeek starts month plans soon.
Start monthly plans... so we can pay _more_? Lol. I've moved >80% of my daily coding usage to deepseek-flash, and at their current token pricing it's effectively free. Any monthly plan would almost certainly increase the cost.
They use your data for training though. Mostly I'm fine with that, but you do need to be mindful of what traffic you send their way.
OpenAI/Anthropic does not train on your data? I'm sure they do
There are cheaper ZDR providers on OpenRouter.
> Hope DeepSeek starts month plans soon.
Do they really need since they are already cheap, make apparently profits with interference and API costs follow the usage? Monthly plan doesn't have much benefits for them, if most would be power users anyway? Only reason is to get more users on the platform, but people already get there, anyway.
>refuses to almost nothing
What do you do to make it not refuse cybersec related activities? Sometimes it refuses to even scan my own codebase for vulnerabilities which is bizarre.
You mean Claude? I have had zero problems with DeepSeek
I recently got Claude Max 5x, after using ChatGPT Pro 20x for a while, and I find the Claude Max value really good. For $90/m, the weekly usage is great AND you get $100 of API credits per month too.
Why the downvotes, lol?
I do believe Claude Max 5x gives best quality/value at the moment out of all plans/providers.
Probably because it’s a discussion about DeepSeek and you didn’t include that in your comparison so it came off a bit big-lab-fan
Also, a model like Haiku is better, faster and cheaper:
https://aibenchy.com/compare/anthropic-claude-haiku-5-5-high...
I didn't include it because the use-case is different.
I can't trust models like V4.1 Flash to do stuff for me without supervision. Yes, they are good for coding and some API-only processing tasks, but not as a main agentic model like Opus 5.5 or GPT-6 Astra are, which can actually do things that function properly without much fidgeting or intervention.
Anyone who compares DeepSeek to Claude can't be taken seriously. I'm rooting for open-source models of course but DeepSeek is so much worse than Claude, it's not comparable.
Let’s hope this is just the beginning of bringing the drama queens (Dario and Sam) closer to planet Earth.
We may actually achieve AGI before that actually happens
What's your criteria for AGI? You think it hasn't been achieved with the most recent frontier models?
I believe he was making a joke
The quality of technical discussions here has clearly nosedived over the past few years. This release basically confirms it.
Interesting how a comment asking about the reasoning behind releasing this as open source is getting attacked, as if doing a good thing should not ever be questioned. I do wonder of China's motives behind this as well.
The government would not allow this open work if it did not benefit them somehow, or perhaps they feel that keeping it closed is not very important right now (maybe because they are somewhat behind the frontier).
Comparing a university student Torvalds and state actors open sourcing code is pretty naive...
You seem to severely overestimate the level of centralised command-and-control in China. It's not like every software company is going to the government for explicit sign-off of every open source release.
There is a pretty clear benefit to DeepSeek's reputation for all the other providers offering DeekSeek's open-weights model to have similar performance/benchmark scores.
In the past performance has varied wildly across inference providers, making this available should result in every inference provider implementing the same optimisations
> On October 16, 2026, the Ministry of Commerce and the Ministry of Science and Technology issued Announcement No. 48 of 2026, publicly solicited opinions on the revision of the China Export Prohibition and Export Restriction Technology Catalogue (hereinafter referred to as the Catalogue), and implemented temporary management measures for pre-export registration of relevant technologies. Recently, the spokesman of the Ministry of Commerce answered questions from reporters on relevant issues.
https://m.bjnews.com.cn/detail/1792137269129878.html
Apparently globally recognized top 10 models (so Deepseek 4.1 Flash and GLM 5.3 Flash) would have fallen under this export registration.
> Apparently globally recognized top 10 models (so Deepseek 4.1 Flash and GLM 5.3 Flash) would have fallen under this export registration.
The model, yes, but not the inference framework.
There's also an explicit exception in there for open source releases (which may explain in part why these companies prefer to work in the open)
The other benefit is that as more of the stack is open sourced we can finally see just how cheaply these models can be served. Which in turn gives us insight into what the frontier labs might be doing.
That, and drive down prices everywhere.
You underestimate it.
7% of Chinas total population are members of the CCP. 7%. So at DeepSeek there's a good few handfuls of them.
If you want to understand the impact of that, read up on reporting lines in the CCP.
Not every company needs sign-off from the government for an OSS release, but every OSS release is visible to the government.
> 7% of Chinas total population are members of the CCP. 7%. So at DeepSeek there's a good few handfuls of them.
If you want a government job, you need to be member of the party. That is no different then the old USSR system.
You end up with a overcount of "members" as people who ideology subscribe to the system, vs people who just become members for the better jobs. And yes, those people also get fired or leave government jobs (especially given the financial issues in the local governments the last few years because of the building crisis / lack of income).
So this type of throw towel over everybody to make a point is just a useless statistic.
The drivers for the stat don't matter. What matters is the reporting duties in the system and the stat.
Every open source release is visible to me, too. Is your point that the government could stop it if they wanted? That's true of every government, but it's not a problem until it actually happens.
I would assume DeepSeek is considered one of China's strategic assets and is therefore heavily policed.
https://earnedintuition.substack.com/p/involution-without-ex...
Kind of says that internal China competition is more intense than from America. I think there is both, but I would say it isn't like the "whole state" is backed against "us" in AI.
Perhaps the powers that be value this code more as a marketing tool for Huawei hardware than as a competitive advantage for selling inference.
china is playing long game, not quarter to quarter. As one diplomat said :
"We don't care! China has been here for 5,000 years. Most of the time, there was no United States and we survived"
Egypt has been around longer. That's kind of a silly political statement.
Egypt hasn't gone beast mode since pre 1200 BC
You've eaten up all the anti-China propaganda it seems like :(
It benefits the _whole_ chinese economy. Providing those raw tools to whatever company. What about the impact on China's GDP growth?
I don’t think there’s got to be some deep conspiracy. Opening this is a pretty clear way to commoditize your competition. That’s an age-old strategy. The community may very well get this up to speed faster than if it remained closed, and DeepSeek / China can (probably) run circles around US labs from a hosting / service cost perspective.
So what makes you think it's not Chinese nationals attacking those comments?
Please never forget that US runs the largest state-sponsored hacking program. They are and have always been the largest APT. Anything opposing that narrative is blatant propaganda.
RE motivations - I wonder whether this is part of their push to double down on social stability efforts?
Yes surely if they are benefited we must lose.... Somehow I just have to think of the reason..../s
This is based on a video seen on Facebook, so take it with a grain of salt.
AFAIK, BYD batteries are based on "bad" materials, with fabrication method perfected until they are competitive [enough(?)] with batteries made with the "good" materials.
The good stuff is patented, locked by the West. China workarounds it. It's not that it is "bad", is just copying West's strategy doesn't work for them.
This seems like a garbled retelling of the shift from NMC batteries to LFP.
The latter are worse on some dimensions, so much so they weren't considered viable for cars in the West. But incremental improvement saw them take over the Chinese market. A classic "low end disruption" story.
They bought up the patents from A123, an American firm with a Taiwanese American MIT researcher founder. The firm floundered in the global financial crisis, a time that is a big inflection point for China's global domination of green tech.
The problem with that theory is that BYD and a few other Chinese companies already for some years have had batteries that are better than anything made in the West, from the point of view of energy density, charging rate, temperature range, cost, so if there is some stuff that is patented and locked by the West, that is the bad stuff.
Living in the EU, I find it concerning that China has advanced so much in battery technology and in the West there are very few positive signs of attempting to keep up with them.
Closing your eyes and imagining that others are not really better, when they are, is not the right strategy to avoid remaining behind.
Which good (EV, I presume) battery provider is from "the West"?
From what I’ve heard from owners (anecdotal) those batteries are still utter garbage.
Yeah, it's musk's flying sausage car that's amazing
This is really cool. But, from what I can tell, its not a huge game changer. Anyone was able to run the open weights model locally anyway. This is just higher performance.
Unless someone disagrees.
This is not about merely running it for demo purposes; it’s about running things in production for generating actual value.
?
Inference is super easy, you already have a myriad libraries that accomplish this. In fact if you read the source, this is release is mostly a wrapper around those same libs.
20 merge requests in the last two hours. And all look somewhat reasonable on first glance.
I am happy for not maintaining a relevant open-source repo.
For comparison, rental prices seem to be ~$2.75/ per H-100-hour [1]. Meanwhile, Deepseek says "38 USD per hour per card”. They haven’t specified which card as far as I can tell.
[1] https://www.ft.com/content/a1815bc5-b5d5-47ff-bbbc-e1a689929...
It's specified in the plain text:
--
Supported hardware:
NVIDIA SM100 GPUs
Huawei Ascend 950 NPUs
that doesnt say what cards the reference number used.
Are you looking for serial numbers or something? GPU family is enough to get the cost estimate.
It's harder than ever to get h100s and then you have to usually commit to a long time period upfront, but yeah this release should close some of the gap.
I also assume they will just slot in whatever cards they can get their hands on, so this figure could be an average.
I would love to read the details about how datacenters do load managing across such diverse hardware, if in fact they really are plugging in any computer hardware they can get on the market. Like how do they balance and serve an even customer experience across a wide range of hardware... is it by clustering similar hardware together?
Maybe OpenAI can use it so I stop getting this 'Model temporarily unavailable' error
Curious how the performance compares to vLLM or SGLang!
They say it was inspired by both so I am wondering what the performance gain is.
For those saying this creates a threat to Nvidia's deathgrip on the market, it really doesn't
The main reason people don't use Huawei hardware is due to regulation. If you're in the US you'd straight up get your hardware seized by customs because they're illegal to buy or bring into the country. EU has similar guidelines I believe.
Nvidia will continue to have its monopoly as long as the powers that be mandate it.
And you think this is going to work so well, when Chinese Models and Chinese Hardware dominate the price-to-performance ratio by an order of magnitude? Not sure about that. US may try to hide behind regulations and lose the market. EU couldn't care less if US or China is the evil partner (and hopefully will just stand on its own, even with help of some open source models, for example).
Sounds like a monopoly created by regulators. Are there no monopoly regulations in the U.S.?
I'm hoping that hosting providers such as Hetzner will soon offer inference at reasonable prices and hosted in the EU with this kind of framework.
They are definitely experimenting with inference, see https://experiments.hetzner.com/ (needs login).
Notably missing their kv cache system
It's exceptionally optimized... 890 bytes per token. At standard 32K context, that's less than 30MB.
1. https://huggingface.co/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-V4.1-Flash
2. https://www.mindstudio.ai/blog/deepseek-v4-1-flash-specs-arc...
Sure, but that size/token is inherent to the model. Part of DeepSeek's hosting advantage, and thus a remaining part of their moat, is migrating KV cache from VRAM to host RAM to nonvolatile storage, and presumably routing requests to where KV cache has migrated. People here on HN say KV cache lifetimes can be 8+ hours with DeepSeek, and I don't know of any other provider that can match that. That infrastructure isn't part of this open-source release.
That's right.
Yes, the theoretical approach is listed there. But the actual code is what's missing.
yeah they mention:
> Required for a complete inference service (not included in this release):
> A KV cache system
> VE/Prefill/Decode disaggregation (most required engine functionality is already implemented)
> Load balancing across data-parallel replicas for both prefill and decode
Yes, that's why I commented. I'm not sure I understand your point.
I was just adding a citation to your point, not arguing against you :)
also adding what other stuff aren't included in the release, and implicitly pointing out that they explicitly mention it's not included rather than it being stealthily missing.
important note
One of the fascinating dynamics around Chinese open-weights models is the competition among American (and some European) inference providers to deliver the best inference performance on them. They've increasingly beaten the Chinese model makers themselves on inference throughput and latency.
Together.ai, Baseten, and others have already achieved higher throughput, lower latency, and lower E2E latency for DeepSeek V4.1 Flash 1017 than DeepSeek's own inference service.
Well presumably the load on the deepseek inference service is a lot higher, probably most users of deepseek use it through them (presumably more in SEA, less in US/EU). And for the users from the EU/US, if they are going to use deepseek, their usage is distributed among all those providers (because of the need for zdr)
That’s just likely the NVDA chip ban at play. I wouldn’t bet on that being an enduring truth
these labs have access to far better NVIDIA chips than deepseek
Does anyone have rough numbers on how this compares to vLLM in terms of price performance? Maybe with something like Dynamo for disaggregated serving and KV-aware routing.
I'm curious if it's a modest increase in performance or a significant one.
The Real OpenAI
AND, presumably, this now and more and more on Chinese chips, mind: "We are profitable, here are the spoils: We are sharing the results of our research and the actual mechanics. And, we do not need you".-
Supported hardware: Huawei Ascend.
Deepseek moment.
Not in the US, as Huawei products have been banned here, but for the rest of the world, definitely
more to say US strategy to strangle Chinese economy and technology industry through semiconductor embargo will fail.
How much are the Huawei cards compared to Nvidia cards now?
It would be cool if we could get a rough idea of how much human effort/time/labour went into this.
And people wonder why I support and wish the Chinese models/companies succeed?
In response, the US government has just banned DeepSeek from parts of the federal government. Here goes the duopoly capture.
Notice of Order Regarding Exclusion and Removal of DeepSeek Products From Federal Civilian Executive Branch Information Technology Systems and Procurements
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2026/10/20/2026-21...
It's a gov subsidy.
This is fantastic. I feel the KV cache system is basically a must for any serious inference hosting, both for the provider as well as the consumer. I guess they have this but just haven’t open sourced it yet.
What's the difference between this and a typical inference engine like vLLM?
Can somebody explain like I'm five what this exactly is? How are providers like Fireworks or Novita providing inference today? Do they use some other inference engine software? If yes, what is the advantage of the DeepSeek inference engine?
For the most part each provider implemented their own inference engines. This release will help them all adopt the common set of optimisations to serve DeepSeek Flash optimally.
Interesting, thanks!
the banning of sending advanced chips, EUV machines to slow down the chinese was an own goal by the USA and the west.
zAI served their latest model for free on chinese chips, now deep seek is saying run inference for cheap on Huawei chips.
even the RAM madness is about to end once the chinese ram providers unleash Ram onto the market in 2027.
lastly remember the chinese have the largest electricity production and the cheapest.
If only we can buy Huawei Ascends!
they must know something is coming from the american labs for some time, you don't release this just like that!
Is it in Debian yet?
I don't understand what is in it for them. I understand that the government wants openness but who's paying them to give away their secrets?
Xi gave a speech about it a while ago. The idea is that ai should increase productivity for the whole economy not just centralise it in 2 or 3 ai companies.
Of course screwing over America’s crown jewel companies is a helpful side effect.
I was referencing that. İt doesn't help deepseek; it harms them unless the government compensates. What's the math?
Exactly what they're aiming for.
Well played!
Open source is different from open weights
DeepSeek doesn't really care about models, they're aiming to become a platform: https://try.works/a-follow-up-on-china's-open-ai-race
I think the reason DeepSeek does this is partly to neutralize competitors' technology, but ultimately the core reason might be that data is what matters.
Data and GPU compute capacity.
Chinese labs do not release "open weight" models because they think it is good for humanity. They do it because they are severely GPU compute constrained due to the Nvidia and ASML embargos. All available GPUs have to go toward training which leaves very little capacity to host inference at scale. So they release the models and encourage EU and USA 3rd parties to host them.
China will inevitably produce their own AI chips and then they will lock down their models just the same as everyone else.
The real loser in all this is obviously Europe, which has nothing competitive once the Chinese models are gone.
> The real loser in all this is obviously Europe, which has nothing competitive once the Chinese models are gone.
Those models are open source / open weights. Europeans can continue with Chinese models as a base same like Cursor used Kimi K2.5 a base for their composer 2.0 model or SWE-2 from cognition is post-trained Kimi K3
Similar to how some labs have done free stealth model releases. Trillions of coding tokens ought to improve performance of the downstream model. However, improving the base model architecture remains the bottleneck since you will not reach RSI with just that (assuming you ever can). And compute, lots of compute…
But how does that benefit the Chinese companies to have other firms host their models and gain profit from the inference, without having to pay the training costs? Training by itself is not profitable at all, only serving the newly trained model (inference) is.
Because Chinese firms and the CCP still want to be relevant at the forefront of frontier AI development. They want to have their own sovereign AI.
The alternative would be the EU strategy which is... nothing. They're content to just be techno-colonized by USA in China.
How to destroy the entire US economy without firing a single bullet
Maybe just maybe the real reason DeepSeek does this is because they are altruistic.
If that's the thing that makes $0.00X cached inputs possible, then this is huge!
They open source it because they don't need it anymore. Probably they are doing something better with Huawei
Right. Gotta imagine they’d only open-source it when they already have something more advanced in play
the only advantage i see long run is they can get free contributions world wide to lower their engineering costs. In the short run, frontier labs gets to use some of the ideas.
Need to see a Strata style take on this.
Just another tour de force from DeepSeek.
I'm not saying that the US labs (Anthropic, OpenAI, and Meta) aren't pulling their weight, they are all doing amazing work as well, but Deepseek may belong in that tier.
So what? We already have multiple open source inference engines for DeepSeek models - that's how there are over 30 providers already running DeepSeek around the world. There's no secret sauce here, they've been publishing everything they do in papers from day 1.
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Has to be something other than Rust to be able to be "rewritten in Rust"
Their inference server/service (wrapper around this engine) could still be written in Rust, this is just the engine.
This is written in Rust: https://github.com/deepseek-ai/deepseek-recipe
This DeepSeek Recipe is also mentioned here: https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/2095560295930508953
Given how much the models like React and JavaScript I guess we should be thankful its Python.
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I’m pretty sure this is rage bait. The idea that China is more interested in virtue signaling than pulling off a power move that will improve their chess position is not worth a serious reply.
I'm curious, are projects like Linux "virtue signaling" to you?
No, and it's also not a major player in the AI race, backed by the Chinese state
> backed by the Chinese state
as opposed to the current crop being backed by the US state? The ones that are basically crying foul at competition? The ones that unilaterally tries to dictate based on political friendliness and compliance (ala, anthropic getting banned)?
At least with open models, you can own the hardware and do the end to end. The current bottleneck is hardware availability at low cost, but i am guessing the chinese state is looking to build their own chip supply chains. I suspect they will succeed.
They've consistently open-sourced their secret sauce since the beginning: https://github.com/orgs/deepseek-ai/repositories?type=all
I don't understand why this is strange to you, some people just do things out of personal satisfaction and/or building their legacy. If it's just money, Deepseek founders are already rich because they have a hedge fund company (High-flyer).
Also I have largely understood that they are not spending that much. They are not hundreds of billions in commitments. So they can just release stuff that have comparatively nothing spend on it and still garner value.
I believe majority of the AI inference (and probably training) infrastructure runs on Linux, so I'd certainly consider it a major player in the AI race.
Perhaps this is evidence there's not as much Fu Manchu moustache twirling scheming as it seemed?
It's releasing open source code. This is a good thing for the world, even if it impacts the portfolio of US VCs.
> I'm wondering how it benefits Deepseek. Why would they willingly give up their trade secrets?
Someone already suggested it may be same as with other open source software, but you rejected that comparison with an ad absurdum.
To rephrase: How would it benefit China? Maybe it is to show that there is no secret sauce, burst the bubble and then profit from the chaos that will ensue? Collapsing US tech giants means lesser MAGA backing, cheaper stocks, cheaper properly..
For the same reason every single open weight models gets released: it's a big flex and gets investors and developers excited.
Is it a sustainable model? Not really. Will it all blow up in our faces eventually? Maybe. But frankly, releasing code like this is far, far more sustainable than releasing whole models.
I would argue that negatively impacting the portfolios of US VCs is one of the greatest favors one can do to the world.
Why make open weights models at all, by your reasoning? Unlike the Anthropics of this world, DeepSeek isn't hell-bound on world domination
DeepSeek is a fixture among privacy-conscious local LLM advocates, but they are still battling for marketshare.
This is advertisement for them, and more so for large entities (like governments and corporations) looking for digital sovereignity: the more they are reassured they can run of their stack locally when needed, the more they will use the cloud offer too.
I am wondering how much stuff (in terms of malicious behavior) one can hide in the (open) weights?
Certainly a lot less compared to closed weights :)
That is what I am not sure about...It is like, is having a public key closer to hacking the account than not having it? Theoretically, it is, but practically, it is not...
This is silly, people do inspect weights and prune/abliterate/whatever them
Also open weight models reveal their thinking, not to mention you can airgap the network around them.
Personally I think it's a geopolitical play by China to take the US AI labs down a notch. (I'm not complaining.)
To assert dominance
well it might become something best in class ?
deepseek is a pawn. china cant compete and can't use our hardware so they'll burn it all down. the cold war continues.
If them releasing their stuff openly burns down whatever the closed ecosystem is doing just maybe that closed ecosystem isn't that great. If something can't survive less resourced option making it stuff public maybe there is lot of wrong with that something.
Seems like they're competing pretty damn well by just about every metric.
Imagine what they could have done without the chip embargo.
Deepseek released just enough to stir the pot but not enough to cook your own from scratch.
Wake me up when we can clone, point it at a dozen H100s we own, and get a working production service.
Anthropic and OpenAI will do just fine.
> point it at a dozen H100s we own
uhm...wake me up when I can buy one(1, single, uno) GPU* to upgrade my PC so that I can play modern games with high graphics, without feeling like I'm being bled dry.
y'all got dozens of H100 at home? isn't that ~300k??
*actually my bigger problem is that I need a new CPU, which means I need a new motherboard, which means I need new RAM, which...you get it.
This is not a home/consumer GPU discussion.
But in that vein, you are in the same position as the chinese LLM providers. They cannot get hardware to host so they put the problem in the forefront by offering it open.
In a way, Deepseek is championing your cause.
> This is not a home/consumer GPU discussion.
fair point...
> In a way, Deepseek is championing your cause.
maybe in 2030 i'll have a chinese gaming PC with chinese local AI. would be interesting to see if they can do the same to US tech companies as they do to european car manufacturers. i'm ready for it...
You can ask Claude to finish it
Make no mistakes.
Target is by end of Q4.
Even though their API price is cheap compared to OpenAI/Anthropic, I still can’t “afford” to use their API because the subscriptions from OAI/Anthropic provide far higher value and peace of mind. I know for sure how much I need to pay each month. I believe most developers fall into this category as well, where $20/$100/$200 from Anthropic/OAI provides more value.
This raises the question: why doesn’t DeepSeek provide a subscription service as well? Is it a better move to have a single pricing model like they currently do?
I'm not sure what you're on about. Load your account with X dollars and then your monthly bill is capped to X dollars.
or by 5 opencode subscriptions, and have $800 of ds4.1-flash for $200. I'm skeptical that the average dev will manage to burn through the equivalent of $800 of ds4.1-flash if they spend even a bit of time optimizing their token usage.
I did use deepseek via API and it can easily cost 3$ per day for my workload. On the other hand Luna 6 on 20$ subscription from OpenAI cover by usage for whole month. However, `ccusage codex` command suggested that my Luna6 token cost is around ~100$ monthly.
``` or by 5 opencode subscriptions, and have $800 of ds4.1-flash for $200. I'm skeptical that the average dev will manage to burn through the equivalent of $800 of ds4.1-flash if they spend even a bit of time optimizing their token usage. ```
This is my point. For most developer, subscription model (with subsidize) is preferable. And what I'm wondering is, as suggestted by very cheap cost-per-token from DeepInfer, why don't Deepseek persued subscription market as well ? What make subscription not make sense for them to provide ?
> On the other hand Luna 6 on 20$ subscription from OpenAI cover by usage for whole month. However, `ccusage codex` command suggested that my Luna6 token cost is around ~100$ monthly.
This is where the model comparisons become hard. Luna and DS4.1-flash aren't comparable models in terms of coding performance, DS is far ahead. Or at least so say the benchmarks. So if you're good with the performance from Luna, there isn't even really a reason to look at DS. You'd pay more for capabilities you don't need. But that doesn't answer your main point of, what to do if you DO needs DS4.1-flash performance.
> And what I'm wondering is, as suggestted by very cheap cost-per-token from DeepInfer, why don't Deepseek persued subscription market as well ? What make subscription not make sense for them to provide ?
By bet, given that they've introduced time-of-use pricing, is hardware capacity. They don't have the capacity to handle more demand, which is what coding plan would immediately produce.
I agree with this. While I realise the current subscription levels probably aren't sustainable long term for this month and probably next month, and who knows how many months after that, it is the best option.
I'm ready and willing to change as soon as I need to, but for the moment I'm going to take advantage of the subscription costs offered as it lets me know exactly how much I'm going to pay each month.
You know your subscription is unsustainably subsidised by debt and likely to change at any moment, yet relying on it provides more peace of mind than buying from someplace that are extremely transparent about their costs. That's an interesting approach to say the least
While I agree with the debt part, API pricing can also change at any moment. Well, anything can change at any moment, it's still wild west outta here.
I'm on an Alibaba Cloud Model Studio TokenPlan subscription, and DeepSeek 4.1 Flash, Deepseek 4 Pro are available, alongside various Qwen and glm models.
I've been using Qwen 3.8 Flash on an $18/month Standard Plan, and haven't gone close to consuming my credits. It got close to rollover date, and I gave it a decent nudge for 2 days, and used... about 2% of my monthly quota. Obviously one of the Max models could burn tokens a lot faster, but I'm very happy with the outputs one of the Flash models has been generating.
I need to give it something harder to do, it seems.
Even the Alibaba $6/month plan supplies a reasonable amount of API use, and Qwen 3.8 Max is a killer model for long time frame agentic use.
Literally everything I do is Open Source software and Open Content writing so I am fine with the lack of privacy using direct Chinese APIs. And, for a little more spend, just use US companies like Fireworks.ai or Ollama Cloud for more privacy, or run on-premise locally and get the best grade of privacy.
Maybe at a certain point their capacity is sufficiently being used up by the "full cost" API usage, and offering cheaper package deals would just cut into their profit because they can't get more inference?
I do not think OAI/Anthropic make the biggest share of their revenue from subscription. The largest share is from API spends. That is what DeepSeek or others aim for as well.
Currently this is true only for Anthropic's $20/month plan. I do a lot of work without reaching my limit. OAI's similar plan on the other hand isn't worth it - it used to be a great plan in the begining when they needed to catch up, but now I reach my limit very quickly on it. The only reason I keep it is because my entire family is using this account for their chatgpt usage.
The more expensive subscriptions are just not worth it for individuals. Using deepseek even at API prices is better value. If you're a company it might be a different story.
It's really refreshing to put some cold hard numbers on this stuff, hopefully this quells some of the "AI is unprofitable everyone is spending a dollar to make fifty cents" arguments. Amortized cost of owning a DC full of GPUs is far less than $38/card/hr
Not to say it can't still be a bubble, just that there is legitimately profit to be had and perhaps some sustainable equilibrium in the future.
> hopefully this quells some of the "AI is unprofitable everyone is spending a dollar to make fifty cents" arguments.
I think everyone has known that inference is profitable overall for the major providers for a while (I'm sure not all user accounts, but in aggregate).
The major providers are unprofitable after you add in the training and research costs and other overheads.
This is why the open source models are such a threat if they become good enough - it will destroy the business model of just providing raw chat/intelligence.
Arguably that's also why a few of these providers are trying to diversify into whole-platform approaches rather than just relying on having their whole thing be a great model.
There has always been a lot of evidence that prices are only going down. The fact that you could already get DeepSeek or GLM inference from 20+ providers on openrouter.ai was already sufficient evidence that inference was profitable and being commoditized.
People that want to believe something different as a coping mechanism will not be swayed by this evidence either.
To add on, training + a highly paid American salary load + inference is unprofitable, if and especially if you have deepseek dropping weights and engines for anyone to run.
non frontier intelligence will be a commodity. Frontier intelligence will be a high margin luxury good. this is how most markets work
> AI will end up being a commodity
what does this even mean, the commoditization... like a thing you can buy from a gas station? AI commoditization is the rock bottoming of pricing.
Usually we end up with cartels in such cases, see OPEC, mafias etc. But we have China throwing sticks into the wheels of the US providers that are attempting to make the cartel and "pacing the frontier"
there could still be a runaway improvement, but it also almost certainly goes with the decreasing prices
>I think everyone has known that inference is profitable overall for the major providers for a while
Have you seen any place that is not as tech-savy as HN? e.g. some Reddit subreddits?
Barely anyone is aware other than people who are already somewhat deep into this whole topic.
> I think everyone has known that inference is profitable overall for the major providers for a while
A lot of AI haters like Ed Zitron and their readers have refused to update on this. I don't know if any of them have yet, but it'll take a year or two for the idea to fully filter out of their podcasts anyway.
Seems a bit of a disingenuous framing. Most of the arguments I see are some mix of
1. Their figures have been pretty dodgy or excluded training costs so why is it trustworthy this time?
2. API inference charged at a profitable level rather than heavily subsidised subscriptions means everyone tightens up their usage + governance Which we very much saw with the rise of openrouter et al.
Personally I think there's a lot of the bait and switch of 2 when people talk about profitability of the 10-20% of API usage for Anthropic while also wanting to lump in subsidised chat users as if they're profitable too.
I think we know if it was this clear cut then the behaviours of companies would be wildly different and more consistent with profitability.
Ed Zitron is a professional apocalypse predictor. Which is to say he's always wrong.
> The major providers are unprofitable after you add in the training and research costs and other overheads
The very short lives of all these models also factor in.
I think the funny thing is the more inference, the more tokens a specific version of a model spits out, actually does make it more profitable.
But somehow a lot of people truly think that each token generated increases the cost of OpenAI/Anthropic/... and shout bloody murder about "subsidies"
And I'm certain there are people out there that actually think the API prices of OpenAI and Anthropic somehow equal their electricity costs.
You know, it's not just cost-effectiveness, it's also iteration time and speed. DeepSeek V4.1 Flash is astoundingly fun to use because it's so quick. Tens of times faster than the standard Frontier models. With, in my experience, practically the same results. Because most of the trouble is not the intelligence of the model. It's the feedback from the world. The quicker you can get feedback from the world, the better your process is, irrespective of raw intelligence metrics of the AI you're using.
> Which means continuing to develop and release new models. At huge expense.
I guess my question is when do we say a model is "good enough"? For my use cases Opus 5.5 feels as if it is exactly at that point. And at that point of course one of the main factors I will evaluate against is price. So far I am happy with my (heavily subsidized) subscription, but if the time comes, I'll happily switch the inference API any of my agents are calling. So far I have no big lock in on any providers.
The Chinese labs are just arms of the Chinese government. They have no obligation to be profitable or please (private) investors. If they weaken/collapse American models, then that is the ROI to the lab owners.
It’s not training and research that kills you here, it’s your own investors ROI expectations that murder you cold when faced with Open Source commoditizing you, from a country that spent 5% of the sum you spent to get to the same position and then gives the recipe away to everyone.
Yes. I've always suspected inference is profitable.
But I'm also interested is retraining needed? how relevant will a model be in N years if it's just "static", and if you do need to retrain and fine-tune over time, is it still profitable? how often is that needed?
For most cases it's probably ok, often times answers are general or basically a web search anyways, but if my Agent started blasting outdated syntax it would suddenly be way worse for coding for example.
Relying on an LLM's baked-in syntax knowledge is suboptimal, compared to leveraging reasonable context affordances (skills, examples, tool calls, MCP servers, search) to ensure adherence to precise APIs and language specs. Don't get me wrong; a model specifically trained on your desired framework is obviously preferable for more consistent generation of idiomatic code -- but relying on that in a large general-purpose model is a questionable proposition IMHO.
It’s helpful for a model to be somewhat static when it’s involved in business processes.
They need to be retrained often is my experience for general usage.
I have SO many cases, for example when shopping, when they make assumptions based on their cutoff date, and they need to redo everything based on lots of searches.
Sure, for many use cases old models will be useful but for general usage a model that's 5 years old will probably be garbage for most people, unless they prompt it extensively, which the general public won't do.
> But I'm also interested is retraining needed? how relevant will a model be in N years if it's just "static", and if you do need to retrain and fine-tune over time, is it still profitable? how often is that needed?
Just wait until what Ilya Sutskever has for Safe Super Intelligence (SSI) to self update the weights without retraining them to bring training costs down close to $0.
As someone who has long bought into the idea that the labs are not profitable on inference, I have a question. How is it simultaneously true that there is more demand for inference than supply (apparently by orders of magnitude), but also that inference is so cheap that labs can make healthy margins? It seems like the inference providers, not the model providers, should have the leverage. Why haven’t they said, “give me a bigger cut of each token or I won’t serve your model”?
Also, what happens when the inference providers suffocate on their own debt burdens? Who will serve inference?
It's a few things I assume:
1. Inference providers are largely a commodity business. While demand outstrips supply, there are many providers of that supply, which does somewhat constrain how much leverage a provider has.
2. The models are not interchangeable as of yet (though this seems to be changing). A lot of people want the latest Anthropic or OpenAI model; as such, the labs still have considerable leverage.
3. A lot of the inference providers have used their leverage by doing equity deals with the labs, agreements to have some of the deal revenue spent on compute, etc.
I would classify training and research more as capital investment than overhead.
> I think everyone has known that inference is profitable overall for the major providers for a while
Unfortunately while in the tech industry some might know that, the general public are still being misled (especially by certain folks who’ve made a living off downplaying AI) to believe inference itself is unprofitable.
The only moat is in datacenters. The software has no moat, since 1) it's already trained on stolen data, and 2) someone with access to AI will be able to reverse engineer a proprietary implementation eventually, the same AI is being used for developing AI.
That's why so many talks about regulations. Regulations means: ban outside competition, just like US bans Chinese EVs today.
regulation is braindead
> The major providers are unprofitable after you add in the training and research costs and other overheads.
This is correct for now, but I recently read that 90% of Anthropic's code is written by Claude Code itself. So, if an AI is using its previous version to train the next version, we're not far from the day where these models will take up the decision making process too. For eg: Decisions API by OpenAI or Jev is based exactly on this. What if a model like Jev sits behind Opus 5.5 and guides it to take the next step? Wooh.
Probabilistic predictions right now are at 99% for frontier models. They will never be 100%, but if humans rate themselves 99.9% in decision making, that benchmark can be broken.
In this game you "win" only if you arrive first, so keeping the same headcount to run faster is a valid option for Anthropic. In this context "winning" means mainly that we lose our jobs
Frequently it's to keep competitors from having them.
Yeah I think one of the less considered costs when people talk about this is the human cost of training. We all talk about the billions spent on compute, but I don't think anyone's got good numbers on how much RLHF is costing but it's got to be pretty large.
Most people in my experience refuse to believe it for some reason.
Well, as that means there's lots of money to be made lowering costs for research and training! What tools have we used in the past to lower those costs? Automation.. Hm, what if we had AI completely automate AI research? Uh oh, we just rationally found outselves in a trajectory where we lose control of our own trajectory because of economic incentives.
It is wild how fast we're hurtling towards this outcome, lmao.
I doubt that, I got downvoted several times pointing out inferencing is insanely profitable.
Even take account of R&D cost it is still profitable, because you do not actual retrain the base model every month, only distill and post train from the same foundation.
heck, I think even including the giant cost of the top tier researcher salaries, they are still profitable.
then, how are they still losing money? just read what they are actually spend the most budget: always the hardware. those companies will never profitable, because they will never stop spending money to expand their computational prowess.
I don't think so. The number of comments I see from people talking about AI, there are plenty who still think the price is going to shoot up. Some even talk this way about models you can run locally on high end yet still consumer level hardware.
I think the more someone works with AI the more likely they realize that inference does not have to be sold at a loss, but many people's AI knowledge seems quite dated and it sounds almost like it becomes a convenient conspiracy theory for some, a way to convince themselves that the market changes that are already happening a temporary (and I don't mean in a Jevon's paradox sort of way, but that companies will go away from AI).
I suspect a lot of this is fueled by a few stories of companies who went all in on spending as much as possible on AI and then begun to walk that back, without realizing that was more about bad incentives and over promises of what AI could do (especially 1/2 model generations ago). Some also confuse running the SotA models at the fullest capacity costing more and more with a given problem costing more and more to solve, not realizing that the cost per problems is trending down but newer and larger problems can be solved for even more, so the costs at the top are rising despite falling prices. Also things like the subscriptions getting more expensive, though how much of that is because developers are doing far more than they were 6 or 12 months ago (and in some cases there was subsidization that is going away). And maybe a bit with the free models starting to not be upgraded or the harnesses getting worse performance of lowered free limits.
I don’t know, I take this as there being a good amount of margin that is going to be suppressed due competition in the very near term. It will be interesting to see how these margins hold up over the next 12 months, I expect them to drop substantially
A lot of people have already replied to this point but I think I want to distill the problems a little more directly:
- If inference is this profitable, is it profitable enough to offset the enormous training costs, bot those already incurred and those in the future?
- If inference is profitable, can it cover other capital and operational expenditures the hyperscalers and neoclouds are committing to, on the timelines they're committing to, to scale out inference?
- If inference is profitable we can measure if the price/earnings ratio of current valuations is sane. Is it?
- If inference is profitable, is it - given the answers to the questions above - profitable enough to make the risks of lenders of the huge amount of debt companies are taking on to scale, rational? It's one thing to say as a hyperscaler "we can make this pay", it's another to say "I'm going to lend them the money to do that and I'm going to get my money back on the timescales we agreed, and with an ROI to boot".
- Finally, if inference is profitable why is Nvidia specifically lending money to companies to buy Nvidia cards to do that inference, and then hitting the credit default swap markets to cover the risk of never getting that money back, and doing so at ever increasing cost, when they could just go build a profitable inference business themselves?
I agree seeing the numbers is good. It does suggest profitability in some segment of the market. However I still have a lot of questions.
100% the right questions. The implied thought process of so many on this thread: Inference profitable >> Frontier Labs' are profitable overall. Sigh...
Inference is very profitible when you can deal with the batch sizes Anthropic, Deepseek and OpenAI are dealing with, renting GPUs for inference is even more profitible.
The US is dealing with different tax code where buying GPUs function as as great way to offset taxes, and having boatloads of debt is rewarded in many cases. I think there's lots more (crooked) reasons why inference is even more profitible in the US.
I can't read the original Chinese text, but if it's revenue, then you still can't say anything about profitability. Housing and powering one GPU should be way less than $38 per hour, so there should be a profit on inference. If that profit can cover training new models we don't know, but it would appear to not be the case.
For the past year or two I think it has generally been agreed that inference is profitable, but the LLM business as a whole is not.
I seem to recall the leaked Liang Wenfeng speech gave a figure of 8-12(?) months of inference recouping the training costs of the model.
kind of on track with gemini's releases
google is a company that tries to make a point of having profitable subdivisions
I assume they need these models to stop being replaced in 1-2 months though.
Who said they need to distill anything? Deepseek is the most popular chinese model getting trillions of input tokens a day that have no ZDR availability. They specifically tell you that part of the deal is that they get your data to use however they want (atleast they're honest).
This idea that Deepseek needed to distil their way to success is nonsense. Its a great narrative for OpenAI and Anthropic to spread because Americans have been brainwashed for two decades into dealing with their own inadequacies by blaming things on scary asians stealing things.
In reality China is outworking and lapping most American companies. They produce 10 EEs to every 1 America produces. They are simply harder workers.
The West is cooked because we're too lazy to work hard and we'd rather make up stories about boogeyman who are stealing from us. The only thing we're good at now is killing people who economically challenge us.
China has a two tier energy system.
Consumer get the cheaper energy, while industry normally get the twice as expensive energy.
But for AI/Datacenters, there is a exception and they get the cheaper consumer level energy.
You need to take in account that the way China taxes is not the same as here in the West. And a lot more is put on the local governments regarding generating their own revenue (why there was so much building in China because those projects funded local government). A bit of a side topic lol. Its not so simple as they are making a loss on something because how its structured.
AI gets the cheaper tariffs then the rest of the industry, that is a fact. They simply have less energy profits on the AI energy. Now if you consider that subsidized or not, ... in both cases China is still making a profit.
What is overlooked is the massive amount of energy generation that China has and still keeps expanding. And that is a direct reflection upon why the prices for industry and consumers are so cheap. This buildout ironically had nothing to do with AI but was more about lower energy = cheaper industry production ... and a lot of buildout was also to build more independence from energy imports. They are not just throwing solar and wind turbines around like candy, the amount of reactors constructed and still under construction, ...
> China currently has 36 to 38 nuclear reactors under construction, maintaining the largest nuclear buildout in the world and accounting for roughly half of all global nuclear plant construction
So yea ... The AI in the west have a issue because it really does not matter if you cut China from Nvidia GPUs or advanced nodes, they compensate on the power level.
Edit: And a little extra, the irony is here in the West building nuclear is expensive as hell because we barely do one or two at the time. With a lot of lost expertise. China doing tons of them non-stop cuts down on the costs a lot.
as if electricity for openai & anthropic isn't heavily subsidised
as if electricity for spacex wasn't literally illegally installed gas turbines polluting the air
I think it’s pretty clear from the cherry picked numbers at Anthropic.
Demand is the issue. Demand only spikes with a sota model release then in drops back down to unprofitable levels when factoring in training a new model and build out.
So your stuck in an unprofitable cycle of losing revenue when your not releasing sotas but losing profit when you are.
This goes back to googles original memo “there is no moat”.
Where in you can’t stop training sotas because you’ll lose customers to the next inference model above you instantly.
Google has seemingly defeated this by finding models cheap and good enough for their existing platforms resulting in a moat of distribution. Something OpenAI and Anthropic seems to lack.
What about sourcing the asset itself? It's like a factory is it not?
You pay for the asset (tenancy in a data center) and then you pay for housing, powering, cooling, etc.
Unless the money of the investors is going somewhere else...
But haven't the Chinese (and Deepseek specifically) put a lot of emphasis on running models efficiently (because they've been locked out of being able to obtain certain GPUs by the US)? Whereas the US frontier companies seemed to get huge cash inflows and didn't need to worry about efficiency as much and put more emphasis on frontier performance. So how do you know that this $38/card/hr is about the same that the US frontier companies are making?
I don't think i'm paying more than Deepseek price, ever
The railroads went bust, twice, not because there wasn't profit available, but because investment outpaced profit and wasn't sustainable.
Until the Chinese stuff came online I was completely convinced this is just a bubble waiting to pop and nothing will come of this tech due to its absurd costs. The Chinese stuff changed this picture massively. I'm daily driving DeepSeek 4.1 flash (at API prices) and every now and then I give Opus 5.5 a try and don't notice anything missing for me.
My workflow is one where I am heavily involved in the process and I don't like giving the agent too much autonomy + I need to follow along. Opus 5.5 speak is still cause aneurysms for my brain. It also has this vibe to its prose... like it's looking down on me. This is Prolly my bias speaking though.
> My workflow is one where I am heavily involved in the process and I don't like giving the agent too much autonomy
For such workflows it barely matters which of a dozen models gets used.
Whereas if you're handing off all dev and no longer reading code, just making CTO-level architecture decisions, then there are only 2~3 models right now worth using, none cheap.
Serious question: Are you do a combative code analysis with a range of different models?
I used to find real dumb bugs in code reviews. With 2-3 different models doing a combative code review.. most of that is already fixed when I get it.
If you can test well enough, both manually and automated, then it's okay if there's a bunch of stupid mistakes in the code, as long as the end result works right. Not unlike biology.
> I'm daily driving DeepSeek 4.1 flash (at API prices) and every now and then I give Opus 5.5 a try and don't notice anything missing for me.
I was doing the same (along with GLM 5.3 Flash) for months, and then gave Claude Sonnet 5.5 at medium effort a try. The difference was like night and day. Where both DeepSeek 4.1 Flash and GLM 5.3 Flash kept making mistakes and would have to do a bunch of iterations to find and fix them, Claude Sonnet 5.5 just did it right on the first try.
In my experience, while DeepSeek 4.1 Flash and GLM 5.3 Flash are a lot cheaper per token, they're just as or maybe even more expensive when you factor in all the extra tokens that are need to troubleshoot and fix their mistakes -- and even more expensive if I factor in my own time wasted doing the same, not to mention the frustration of having to deal with that.
DeepSeek 4.1 Flash also hallucinates a lot.[1]
I'm hoping all this improves with time, and the gap between the competent frontier models and open weight models narrows.
[1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P4dTq4X8bqk
That’s the Model Welfare speaking, not your bias.
OpenAI's entire business is trivially profitable when you attach an ad network to ChatGPT.
Quick, someone point out the one billion user system with intent + personal data rich that doesn't result in a $100+ billion high margin ad network.
It is that simple and absolutely nothing can stop the gigantic ad networks that will be built up around personal agents.
What is that CPM? My CPM in ChatGPT is lower than in Google. CPM is a bad metric, how much does 1 conversion cost? You can charge me $100 per ad all day, as long as every showing results in a $1000 sale.
There's a trillion plus dollars (per year) of ad business up for grabs in the LLM era.
Facebook is toast, sooner than later, as a business. Whatever gradually replaces/upgrades that quasi dead friends network, will be premised on AI (Zuck apparently thinks it's at least in part personal agents). In the present Meta still has a $228 billion ad business that is hyper profitable.
Google + Meta = ~$650 billion hyper margin ad business. OpenAI, aka LLM as a service for the masses, is going to want to take as much of that as they can. OpenAI's active user base comes at an attention cost to the other mega services like FB or Google Search, and ultimately that attention is worth ad dollars. The question is only whether OpenAI can take it, not whether it's there at all or high value. And of course there's no guarantee that it'll be ChatGPT upon which the next great ad network is built, it will be some AI-centric business however, and likely heavily involving LLMs.
Google's operating income last quarter was $40 billion. If OpenAI fails to take the mass market + ad tandem, then Google will more likely retain their position. The solution to the cost is already well understood by eg Google: the masses don't need tip of the frontier AI capabilities, and relying on Nvidia's extremely over-priced GPUs is a dumb business model. The biggest threat to OpenAI right now is Nvidia's margins, not China. Google's focus has been on high quality cheaper AI systems for a reason: they're looking to serve billions of people that have no use for what the bleeding edge offers vs a fast + good mid-tier. Google can do that in a highly profitable way.
I suppose the very reason why we haven't seen ads yet is that they're trying to figure out how to prevent exactly this.
What? Ad networks REQUIRE a moat. Google Meta Amazon have historically defensible moats. ChatGPT? Zero moat. Good luck with that ad business!
[dead]
>It's really refreshing to put some cold hard numbers on this stuff, hopefully this quells some of the "AI is unprofitable everyone is spending a dollar to make fifty cents" arguments.
Inference has always been profitable. The problem is that this profit shrinks as your model becomes less competitive. The labs are in a constant race to release the best model to maintain inference profit. Deepseek is not training their own models at the scale of OpenAI and Anthropic and mostly sustains off their efforts via distillation.
> Amortized cost of owning a DC full of GPUs is far less than $38/card/hr
what do you think it is, out of curiosity?
You can pay off a high end Nvidia DGX server at just over $7/hr/card over a 1 year period.
$38/card/hr is a ton of money. That's $2.6 million per 8-card server per year.
The cost of power/physical space/interconnect by comparison here is negligible.
...well you can get B200 in cloud for ~$6-14/hour and that's after all hosting costs and profits company make of it soooo yeah
> Amortized cost of owning a DC full of GPUs is far less than $38/card/hr
You missed the bit where they used the word "revenue".
I suspect if you factor in all the various overheads of running datacentres the actual value is lower. Revenue is vanity, profit is sanity as the old saying goes.
However the Chinese do have the benefit that China are pushing hard on renewable energies. So at least that major part of the equation is probably far lower than your average US/EU site.
Huge, generational mistake for the USA to be leaning so hard into fossil fuels right now and actively trying to prevent buildout of solar and wind power. That decision is just going to hurt more and more in the coming years as China's electricity costs continue to plummet while the US' continues to depend on unsustainable fossil fuel infrastructure.
> actively trying to prevent buildout of solar and wind power.
And actually paying people not to ! (Paying RWE $1.2bn to abandon wind contracts[1])
Its absolutely nuts. Pure generational can-kicking.
[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e1vg0gjl5o
It's not a mistake. It's deliberate harm.
> Huge, generational mistake for the USA to be leaning so hard into fossil fuels right now and actively trying to prevent buildout of solar and wind power.
If the US is trying that, they are failing pretty hard - 88% of new power in the US in 2025 was renewables, and 2026 is estimated to be above 90%
Reality: renewables rapidly increasing in the US every year, especially solar (around 30%)
Why? AI DCs can't rely on solar or wind so there must always be a thermal backstop. China is building lots of coal and nuclear.
The only thing he cares about right now is covering up the Epstein Files. Everything else is key jingling to get you looking elsewhere.
China is investing in cheap and secure energy, which includes renewables, but it also include coal: https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/chinas-coal-power-ri...
The latter is great as a way of getting an edge in business and reducing reliance on oil supplies, but its also environmentally highly damaging.
> You missed the bit where they used the word "revenue".
No they didn't...
> I suspect if you factor in all the various overheads of running datacentres the actual value is lower.
That's literally exactly what the quoted part addresses: "Amortized cost of owning a DC full of GPUs is far less than $38/card/hr". Cost of running GPUs is far less than $38/hour, revenue is $38/hour, ??? , profit
> It's really refreshing to put some cold hard numbers on this stuff, hopefully this quells some of the "AI is unprofitable everyone is spending a dollar to make fifty cents" arguments. Amortized cost of owning a DC full of GPUs is far less than $38/card/hr
They (well, most of them) are looking at loans and debt (in plain sight and hidden) of AI companies and asking "what will pay for that", not looking at how much a GPU costs and how much tokens you can sell off it.
Just putting a model on a GPU and selling it is profitable, period.
But spending more and more money on building and running infra to build frontier models that solve smaller and smaller piece of the pie might very well be unprofitable.
Models competing with the frontier labs gets more capable every month and more and more of the tasks can be achieved without reaching for the big guns.
We might very well get to the point where AI/LLM is profitable just fine but bubble still bursts and the big frontier labs are in trouble. And frankly that would lead to far more sustainable ecosystem.
With this new data at hand, I have to wonder how profitable would it be for the investors.
The cost of amortising a datcenter, the gpus, the engineering costs attached all to produce inference.
At how much percentage of its inference would it be profitable (if it does), how much returns would it make over the long term and what would be the profit of those inferences/ profit-revenue and how that compares to other industries.
Are there any statistics which show this. Also how efficient token inference has gotten over time?
https://inferencex.semianalysis.com/profit-estimator
AI as a business will be 10x larger than it is today within the next 20 years.
Present valuations are the bubble, not the business / industry. The exact same thing was true about the Internet bubble circa the late 1990s, except this is a lot more important than the Internet and the global economy is drastically larger.
Productivity is how you expand economy and wealth. It's how China can go from being one of the world's most backwards agricultural nations, unable to feed itself properly, to gradually becoming an agriculture juggernaut. AI is a hyper productivity tool, saving people time and bolstering capability are two of the primary productivity concepts.
We're not even out of the first inning yet.
> AI as a business will be 10x larger than it is today within the next 20 years.
I would argue it will be 10x in 2-3 years the way things are going.
Why do you posit that this is a lot more important than the Internet?
this is tech fart sniffing self-aggrandization. You’re saying words that mean nothing. Tens of billions of robots? To do what, exactly? Have you ever interacted with people, not nerds, real human people? Real people don’t crave a future filled with robots, real people want real people.
The world will be filled with robots is not the inspired forward-thinking of a visionary it is the uninspired regurgitated science fiction of someone who doesn’t care to understand that the world is people, a society.
> People will have more artificial friends than human friends within ~20-30 years.
That would be awful, presuming that the artificial friends are not people.
Separately, you might like Count to the Eschaton by John Wright with its ultimate project being "the sophistication of all matter".
There's a rising trend among gen alpha to not use phones or internet to get back their youth period that was ruined by the algorithms. I predict this trend will continue, and I myself am yearning to use less technology each day (but can't because of salary!).
But yeah, masses will do masses stuff and that's why even shit products can sell.
>People will have more artificial friends than human friends within ~20-30 years.
How do you envision an "artificial friend"
Those arguments will go away when spending on AI infrastructure is no longer some multiple of gross annual software sales revenue, yeah?
When that happens, the chips stocks will have tanked back to sane levels and the doom posting will be about that. That will put us in the 2001 era of post dot com bubble, and the following few years will show us who the winner are
You're looking for comfort in the wrong place.
From microns S10: BITS shipped and net revenue.
Q1 '20 - $0.10 profit per gb shipped (ram and storage)
Q1 '23 - -$0.024 (cyclic ram market)
Q1 '25 - $0.131 this looks normal were on the upswing.
Q4 '26 - $1.136 Were all fucked.
If you look at a chart of S3 prices we have all been living in the "Happy Time" where the cost to run our ever growing software business has gone down. Githb says 2025 billion commits - 14 billion this year, and 2x the actions run. That means AI driven software growth is 2x to 14x.
But those ram/storage prices are going to hit the operational budget of EVERYONE soon.
Can your average sas survive a 4x price increase on its AWS/Azure bill? How about 10x (cause thats what the margins say the premium is on ram).
If the circular financing is a concern, the circular firing squad should be a bigger one. Your paying for tokens to build more software to pay more to run your software is not a sustainable cycle. People are starting to use the words CapEx again - and it's a good thing.
And it seems we're getting just 10x more software nobody uses.
you actually have no idea what the cost is
Today. As new supply comes online and demand levels off, that 38$ will shrink. Absent legal monopolies, the margin will shrink to a sliver more similar to any other service. That is the danger of open source models. They destroy monopolies and shrink margins.
> That is the danger of open source models. They destroy monopolies and shrink margins.
Danger? You mean benefit?
> The entire western world has doubled down on AI becoming the most popular product since the invention of fire.
That's a bit of a one-sided view.
The people who own these companies have more money than they, their families, and their extended families can spend for generations. None of them have to work a day in their life no matter what happens to these companies.
Same with a lot of their investors, who will be just fine without the "insane profits" they hope for.
I'm not worried about their welfare, and won't shed a tear if their companies collapse.
> nearly everyone is on the investor/owner side
I think that "everyone" needs some kind of an asterisk. Who's "everyone" in this?
Depends if you’re a shareholder or not
> That is the danger of open source models. They destroy monopolies and shrink margins.
It's unclear that the leading open-source models could exist without having distilled the frontier models. If that's true, the "danger" is that these upstream models don't get built any more (because of the tremendous cost), and we end up just optimizing what we have. Also unclear whether this would be a net win or loss for humanity.
This deals with half of one of the three scaling factors only. Presumably data production (choosing your training data, etc), model size, and training time/power still contribute huge costs. Who's investing that cash if open-source models will distill out enough to compete without the investment costs?
> they were built by distilling the world's knowledge and cultural products
... and a bunch of RLHF and proprietary training data etc etc, but regardless, this is still an exceptionally expensive process, that someone somewhere is paying for.
I'm OK with this.
According to who? There is no agreed upon anyone that says that?
If SAP sold $1 bills for $0.50, they too could rapidly outpace Anthro/OAI's growth. And when sane minds ask about profits or a defensive moat, the response is "but look at our revenue bro".
It is mostly response to claims of "all LLM are subsidized and blatant bubble, LLM are useless" etc
All LLM are subsidized and blatant bubble.
If the only profit is from running commodity free software (as OP claims), there's no moat and OpenAI/Anthropic are worthless.
We still need to know if that includes purchase and maintenance costs, which are substantial. And then of course all other costs associated with it.
You also have to realize deepseeks running costs are immensely lower than say any us lab by orders of magnitude.
Chinas grid is almost entirely renewable energy with strong investments in it. In the us not the case, some dcs are running on gas.
Also DeepSeek was smart. They strategically rolled out model sizes they could support even if the intelligence wasn't the world's best for that week in human history. Then they have incrementally and cheaply improved models since.
Not to mention they also built trust with open weight models rather then fear mongering. They are in the top 3 of the smartest most viable LLM labs out there.
China generates more electricity from coal than from all renewables put together (49.7% per https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Solar-Ove...).
They have more installed renewable capacity than coal, but renewables have low capacity factors, solar is less than 50% by definition. The renewable share is growing fairly rapidly, but it is by now means almost entirely renewable.
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At off peak pricing, which is substantially lower than the standard API rate (50% off). So I assume it looks even better financially overall.
Quick numbers:
At $35/hour in net cash generation per card, a $30,000 GPU would pay for itself entirely in about 850 hours (roughly 35 days)
With an assumed ~ $3 operation cost per card and hour
Your estimation feels too high. It implies >1000% ROI on a GPU card (= $300k gross annual profit on a $30k card).
As a reference point, Z.ai is operating at 26% gross margin as of 1H26. So assuming ~90% gross margin is likely a bit off.
No, those $3 are on the high end. If you do not factor in hardware depreciation, at China's low electricity prices (largest variable cost and China has a surplus larger than many country's entire consumption) and with GB200 which is one of DeepSeek's main platforms, the operation cost is actually less than 50 cents per hour most likely. If you factor in hardware depreciation this rises significantly but almost certainly stays under 3 usd per hour, probably closer to 2.
Orinally it was an educated guess based on rental prices I've seen but Opus 5.5 and Gemini 3.8 Flash both arive at the same numbers based on DeepSeek's Zhihu post and GB200 specs. Around 30 cents before depreciation and $2 to 3.50 including it.
> The average utilization rate of inference GPU cards is not that high (i.e. it peaks during the daytime, but is idle at night). So the time window for earning $38/h is fairly limited.
In DeepSeek's case this kind of levels out because they have a large user base both in China and the West (time zones), and additionally attract users in the non-Chinese timezones using their off peak 50% discount which is what DeepSeek talks about here.
> B. They are renting costly GPU capacity from 3rdparty hyperscalers because they can't meet the peak demand with their own hardware.
I looked this up from Chinese sources and DeepSeek primarily builds their own compute infrastructure rather than renting it
> C. Free-tier users are eating the gross margin. > D. Subscription users are eating the gross margin.
That's true, but given how lucrative inference at API rates is, they can subsidize training and individual users to some degree. Are they still losing money overall? Not unlikely, but with moonshots that is often the case. Remember that Uber and Spotify took around 15 years to have their first profitable quarters.
DeepSeek CEO has previously said that their finance team considers the optimal payback period for hardware purchase to be 10 months. That is, 10 months worth of revenue should be equal to the purchase price of the hardware. This doesn’t cover operational costs such as electricity. This is their method for API pricing.
How is the math so good for data centres but so bad for home gear? A Mac mini capable of running these models ends up at around 10 years of subscription costs.
Because the datacenter setups serve multiple users concurrently while your mac mini only serves one. You would also lose money hand over fist renting/buying 4xH200s just to serve deepseek flash to yourself.
All of it is really about scale, same reason as a single person you can't sell french fries as cheap as McDonalds.
A single person could make french fries for themselves cheaper than McDonalds, but once they have to start including the cost of the building and equipment, charging for their labor, and complying with health codes and worker safety requirements, they will quickly find that the fixed costs swamp the variable costs.
(numbers are just to illustrate a point, not accurate) Now assume you can't buy a 5lb bag of potatoes and you can only buy 10,000 lb bag. Now also assume that you can't buy this 10,000 lb bag unless you know someone else will pay for fries for the other 9,995 lb because you can't eat that many fries. That's the kind of scale the token inference market is efficient at.
How much does a fryer cost? How much does the fryer cost to run? How much would it cost to get the fries into the customers hand (i.e. food truck, rent)?
For the ones who are still wondering how so much profits, inference is a highly profitable domain: https://inferencex.semianalysis.com/profit-estimator
I think we need to collectively get a grip on statements like this.
There is no reason to think inference can or will remain interestingly profitable even if you assume pure-play inference providers who don't do any model training. Serving an LLM isn't child's play but it's also not so hard as to count as a moat. Inferencing is:
1. Selling a largely undifferentiated product.
2. Into a highly competitive market.
3. To customers who are primarily sensitive to price.
Industries like this have always existed and in the modern era tend to have margins of about 3% to 5%. Any level of margin higher than that gets competed into the ground.
If you want to claim inference is highly profitable in general, you're going to have to answer why it won't end up like supermarkets or airlines, both of which have bigger moats than inference.
The other problem with this analysis is obviously that you can't just stop training models. Even if you don't care about improving capability or performance, the knowledge in their weights gets stale. Cost of inferencing has to take into account the ongoing cost of training, you can't cleanly split one from the other.
Amen. AI boosters look at currently high profit margins on inference and blindly accept claims that these inference profit margins will continue. Of course those margins depend on historically massive R&D spend on training. The moment that training stops, AI returns to a commodity market and the inference profits end. Big labs are trying as hard as possible to keep the gravy train running but they can all see it won't last forever, hence the rush for IPO & regulating away open models.
Boosters are right that AI is a historically impactful product, but big labs will be unable to meaningfully profit from ushering in the AI era just like Netscape failed despite ushering in the internet era.
Exactly, inference is like groceries or electricity.
Because LLMs are like evolutionary crabs, they all get to the same point.
"If you want to claim inference is highly profitable in general, you're going to have to answer why it won't end up like supermarkets or airlines, both of which have bigger moats than inference."
- I don't... "inference is profitable" is as of now. No one knows future, neither have I commented anything on it.
The statement is valid as it stands.
Accounting for initial acquisition cost and typical depreciation/failure rate? I assume they already consider colo price, electricity, etc
70%+ net profits margins are for rented infra, that means no major upfont expense. Also, these margins are against 60% utilization only.
You can well imagine if you own your infra and can make utilization over 90%, where these go.
And then, my link above is for K3 model, which, compared to ds flash models, is highly unoptimized.
If I had a few million lying around, I would have invested in inference.
I would be surprised if there was such a glut of undifferentiated inference providers for open models otherwise[0]. Possibly just people trying to minimize the loss from already-committed capital, but I don't see AWS and DO selling inference via OpenRouter unless they're making a decent profit from it.
0: https://openrouter.ai/openai/gpt-oss-120b#providers
Fascinating site. Thanks for linking. However note if you change to "open router" pricing in some cases even B200 which is ~2y old has negative margin (and AFAIK ppl are using longer amortization than 2y - I do not know how cost are calculated here though).
1. The link is for rented infra. That means the inference provider doesnt have to worry about deprecation.
2. Newer gen nvidia gpu's like GB300 are way more profitable.
Why isn't ordered by profit % per GPU? It' surely the most important indicator
DS4 Flash is so cheap also, imagine what the numbers look like for a flagship model like Opus 5.5, which charges 100x more. Of course inference for that model also costs more, but I doubt the proportion is the same.
Or now, Anthropic will distill the knowledge from this engine and optimize their inference.
The top quality frontier models are used to compress / improve the earlier, lesser models, to make them more efficient. So that pushes costs way down on previous models.
so if this was true then why do we need see GPU rental prices increase and openrouter token prices fall, for deepseek and other open models?
Ultimately, more people serving.
- gpu market is starving, demand is higher than supply = leads to high gpu price
- number of openrouter shovel sellers rises = lower token prices
Deepseeks strategy is that each project must break even within 10 months.
$38/hrs equals $320K in 10 months.
Assume they only have 100 clusters, and as much as 40% operational costs. That would get them about $20M in 10 months, which I suspect is more than what 4.1 flash training has cost them.
No, a cluster consists of 4x SM100, and $38 profit is per card, so after 10 months you already have $1.0 million.
I haven't accounted for 7 hours of peak-pricing per workday.
Of course, you won't have 100% utilization.
For four cards at 100% utilization it's $4712 per workday and $3648 per day on the weekends and holidays.
This is per card pricing, not per cluster pricing, so I think you’re off by an OOM or 2
So it’s only getting better since last year!
Are frontier labs making 80+% gross margins on LLM inference? (2025)
https://johnnyclee.com/i/are-frontier-labs-making-80percent-...
If open source inference engines proliferate (in terms of adoption, across models, across inference hardware) I imagine you'd get pricing pressure on that inference rev towards base card cost, so my interpretation is this is actually a bad development for compute providers.
Do they share latency / concurrency figures (aka the deployment shape that gets them that token/s/cluster? Would be interesting if they're using deepEP/WideEP + PP and TP
I'm sure Kim Dotcom's megaupload or Napster had even higher revenue for distributing stolen IP, but they did not have institutional backing.
$0.00051192 per M/tok ?
Assuming a 64 card cluster
> A nuclear bomb
Indeed. This could actually be what breaks America's world order.
AI can already clone major products like Photoshop and Office. Maybe not at 100% feature parity for now but at a "good-enough" surface level. That will only keep improving. Eventually we could get clones of Windows and macOS at feature parity.
Even if US lobbying/corruption tries to cripple AI to prevent that, China will instigate and accelerate it.
thats a lot cheaper than renting a H100
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