I think the Duo looks great. And from the few hands on video I have seen I think the Apple presentation actually doesn't do it justice. There is no crease at all! [1]
On the note on this year's keynote. I can't be the only one who feels the whole vibe of the keynote changed. This isn't Tim Cook style keynote and John Ternus wasted no time to try and changed a few things already. I can't wait for John to further shake things up at Apple. But everything so far, all the small minor details suggest they are in the right direction.
These threads are often amusing with people obliviously asking: why doesn't Apple make exactly what I want? And then stating with certainty how well their custom requirements would sell.
I'll probably wait and see how this phone does over the next few years. If it is still highly regarded by version 3 then I could imagine making the switch to a folding phone. For now I will remain conservative since my phone is such a critical piece of tech.
100%. It was so funny to see how for years, everyone on HN was harping on about how well a smaller iPhone would sell. Then Apple finally released the iPhone mini and nobody was buying it, so they had to kill it after a couple of iterations.
Basically, try to do the opposite of what HN is saying and you might just create a successful product.
> Then Apple finally released the iPhone mini and nobody was buying it, so they had to kill it after a couple of iterations.
And by "nobody", you mean "actually a lot of people, just not as many as the bigger model". It's ok to have a model that meets a less common, but still extant, need in the market. If everyone followed Apple's logic on this, people with very small or very large bodies would have to go naked because companies would go "that size doesn't sell as much, we have to kill it" rather than (as actually happens) charging more per unit to make up for the overhead of lower volumes of sales.
The mini accounted for 3% of sales. Personally I’m a believer, and a buyer, but 3% isn’t a good number.
6 to 7 million units at the scale of Apple is not necessarily worth the investment.
It's not ok if it uses resources that could be better spent elsewhere. At 3% share what do you expect them to do?
Contrary to popular belief, Apple did not kill the mini because iphone 13 mini sales were poor. And they were poor.
Apple killed it because Mini 14s are illegal in Europe. There are tons in the US though.
The Mini 14 never existed. Perhaps you're thinking of a specific (non-mini) model of the iPhone 12 which was temporarily banned in France or maybe the USB C requirement which went into effect ~1 year after new sales of the iPhone 13 mini were already discontinued by Apple worldwide?
I think maybe they're making a joke about the Ruger Mini-14? It's a rifle.
The mini-14 is probably the best and most useful rifle I’ve ever owned and would 100% recommend to anybody.
Being average person is like winning lottery. Everyone is making products for you.
Also you get most anonymity on the internet because they can't fingerprint you.
All those John Smiths out there are laughing at me
An average person would ironically be quite unique.
Except there’s no average person, the average itself is a combination of people with the most diverse needs and constraints. It’s like the joke that the average human being has 1 breast and 1 testicle.
My favorite similar statistic is that the average human body contains more than one human skeleton
"Bring back the headphone jack, it's what everybody wants and will sell squillions!"
I am 75, and have a ton of computer gear. I can imagine myself as an old man later in life, not wanting to do any programming, and just wanting a single digital device like a future version of this product. Let’s see what Apple has available in 10 years.
Sir, I’m 40 and I’m already at the stage of not wanting to do any programming. I used to love this stuff. But after watching all my favourite companies and CEOs turn to greedy villains… I’m just done. How do I survive another 35 years doing this stuff?
Good news! According to some, we don’t have more than 3.5 years in the career path, so that’s 10x less time you have to survive.
I hope they're wrong, I need to squeeze out 6 years for this career. Fortunately I work for a big stodgy old company whose idea of fast tech adoption is measured in years anyway.
Go work for companies you like. There are plenty of good people out there making useful software. Or make your own opensource software and put your effort where your heart is.
It’s easy in our industry to burn out doing commercial work with no soul. But it’s not the only kind of work out there.
I worked for a large unethical company in the US that worked to emulate big tech, and took a page out of Jack Welch's playbook (stack ranking etc). I was miserable working there and thinking of changing careers.
I ended up moving to New Zealand and working for a small civil engineering firm that has developers to write internal tools that are used by the engineering team to process their data. The technology I'm working with is a lot more dated, the development processes aren't sophisticated (there are 0 meetings and no attempt at project management) and I took a real pay cut, but I genuinely feel that the software I'm working with is beneficial and has a net positive impact on the world, no matter how small. There is also no on call and I work exactly 37.5 hours a week, on top of all of the workplace culture differences in NZ.
They've always been greedy villains.
Nah, this is a really dangerous narrative. Shareholder primacy is a pretty recent concept (a fundamentally anti-American one) that has recently gone metastatic and is now completely self-referential.
We've Goodharted the entire premise of the profit-seeking corporation and now openly say that Goodharting it is actually the point. Maybe it should be called Meta-goodharting or something.
Edit: Since large numbers of 1) historically illiterate and 2) "ideas don't matter" type people tend to congregate on HN, it's worth saying explicitly that the takeover of shareholder primacy is empirically visible in all sorts of corporate behaviors.
If you think Rockefeller (especially) is an example of unalloyed greed, you unfortunately land in category (1) mentioned above.
The problem is not wealth. The problem is not producing massive value and capturing a portion of it.
The problem is thinking that the system-level goal of capitalism is to extract wealth rather than to produce it and distribute it. Of the men you listed, only Vanderbilt supports your argument.
Enshittification says hi
I highly recommend Incorruptible by Eric Reis - it makes it clear that shareholder primacy is a relatively recent phenomena, but capital and markets have been corrupting businesses for a long, long time.
He did an AMA here recently https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48477135
There are several business philosophies a person (or a culture) can pick from. The dominant philosophy in the US today is "shareholder primacy" where business leaders believe their only dictum is to maximize shareholder value. This is so pervasive that many Americans (businesspeople and non-) think that it's baked into what it means to be a profit-seeking business, but it is not.
Shareholder primacy took off after Milton Friedman advocated for it 1962. The philosophy that it supplanted (in the US) was "stakeholder capitalism" where businesses explicitly sought to be positive contributors to a much more comprehensive set of stakeholders: their shareholders, their managers, their employees, their customers, their suppliers, and their communities (non-exhaustive).
The central conceit of capitalism is that you can co-opt the individual's greed and, properly constrained by laws and guided by markets, you can reward them for doing things of value for their community.
The question then is what philosophy do you build around that central greed-of-the-individual. Do you temper it with expectations of taking care of people other than oneself? Or do you fan it and unbridle it by saying, "actually, greed isn't the evil that we must co-opt to pro-social ends, greed is actually the pro-social end itself?"
It turns out that if you do the latter, business managers, shareholders, and regulators can collude to create extremely positive outcomes for each other at the expense of other stakeholders. You can save money by dumping your waste product into rivers, you can arbitrage labor away to infinitely far away lands, you can buy politicians, etc. etc.
How might regulators behave differently in a world where people believe a corporation ought to take care of its entire community, versus a world where the literal only purpose of a corporation is to enrich its shareholders? Quite different, probably!
Then all of this stacks on top of the natural "capital flows to capital" dynamic in capitalism which I'd argue is insufficiently mitigated, and you just get this ridiculous feedback loop that piles more resources and positive outcomes into a narrower set of people, while offloading more negative outcomes onto everyone else.
Obviously opting into a different business philosophy doesn't preclude negative outcomes, but I think that more budding business leaders could, should, and would essentially have their careers strangled earlier on if they exhibited antisocial traits if we had a business culture that didn't pretend like this was literally an asset.
Re your second question:
Assuming that shareholder primacy is the only philosophy we could pick from, then yes a market with many public shareholders is better than the alternative. But 1) not everyone is invested in public markets, 2) not all companies are available to purchase in public markets, 3) public markets are demonstrably not good at solving certain types of problems – especially problems that occur over extended time horizons or are easy to externalize off the balance sheet, and most importantly 4) costs-benefits are not zero-sum. You can't generally undo the harms of Company A by investing in its competitor Company B. It would be best if both companies' management felt they had an obligation not to harm their communities even if it could further enrich their shareholders to do so. It would be even better if investors in general felt both companies should have an obligation to take care of their communities or employees, and so companies lived in fear of divestment if they chose to violate their communities.
But in a culture that has opted into shareholder primacy, all feedback signals in this direction are removed. Regulators, investors, shareholders, employees, and the general public all pretty much believe that maximally externalizing harms and maximally capturing benefits is actually literally the way it's supposed to be.
Quantity has a quality all its own
Find a hobby that doesn’t involve computers. It’s the only thing that will keep you sane in these trying times.
Switch the work mindset off, turn your nose up at technology and go touch grass. I wouldn’t be recommending if it didn’t work for me.
If nothing else it helps reframe your perspective on the world which technology companies as of late have been trying to distort to enrich the dozen or so people at the helm to their own benefit..
Holy batman, are you me?? I too am 40 and so sick of this industry after the masks came off and AI greed forced all CEOs and execs to salivate like hungry hyenas.
Are you sure you're just not frustrated that you didn't win the greedy villain lottery?
My dad is 87 and I'm seriously thinking about buying him one of these. He wants a phone that will fit in his pocket, but his vision isn't great so he has the text size bumped up pretty high. Right now he's using an iPhone 15. Large text size on a small-form-factor phone, it turns out, makes a fair number of apps nearly unusable. For example, it's super common to see a dialog box pop up where the "OK" button is pushed off the bottom of the screen by the text, leaving you with no way to dismiss it. I frequently get tech-support calls from him that end up boiling down to that problem, and it makes using apps a pretty frustrating experience for him.
A device that fits in his pocket and that he can still hold in one hand when he's using it as a phone, but that has enough screen real estate to run apps in large-print mode without constantly breaking UI designs, would meaningfully improve his life.
Iphone 15 counting as "small form factor" says a lot.
Good catch! I misremembered his model. He actually uses an iPhone 13 Mini, which definitely counts as small (by modern smartphone standards, anyway).
This would actually be a growing market in 10-15 years due to increased life expectancy and every boomers has reached retiring age by then. Maybe Apple would introduce an iPhone optimized to be used especially for older people
I know my Pixel has an accessibility setting that is effectively "make this device more usable for older people." It gets rid of the home screen/app switching/go back gestures and replaces them with the old icons at the bottom of the screen, makes all the text and icons larger, and apparently increases the amount of time you need to press on the screen for it to count as a long press.
Its a 2200$ device which does the same thing as a 500$ tablet or any other option.
If people would at least use the power they buy... :|
We (the HN audience) have disposable income for that type of thing, I don’t see the issue with being a casual user of an expensive device
I can't even afford the 17e, who is this we?
The audience at large. It’s obviously not every single individual
>We (the HN audience) have disposable income
Ah the fallacy of thinking a collection of individuals as being a homogeneity.
I cannot with good faith tell you the financials of every HN user to any degree of accuracy to defend a statement like you're defending.
What you have is a "guess".
Maybe one data point is that this forum is open to all, without any gatekeeping based on salary?
Doesn't ycombinator run a business where they let people borrow money with a high degree of likelihood that the venture will be a complete failure?
If I was the receiver of such a loan, am I just going to give myself a huge salary, or what it is that you do, here?
It does far more than just a tablet. If it was easy, there would be one or two other companies out there who is this other vertical computer company?
OP is 75 years old and belongs to the generation that already own a house and pretty much comfortable in their lives and any money they have/earn is just to consume things and live life. So why not spend it on a first generation device
Most tablets can't make cellular phone calls.
A $2200 device and still limited to running dumbed-down touchscreen 'apps' from the App Store.
i've been hearing this critique of new apple products for about two decades now and inevitably: - apple's product "does the same thing" as [device sold at 25% of the cost] AND - apple's product "does the thing" at a level of polish that's in an entirely different league from every competitor.
siri is the great exception here. jesus christ what a piece of shit
The $500 tablet could be an Apple iPad
In fact iPads start at $429
Hell before the recent price hikes $2000 would get you a Macbook Neo, an iPad Mini, and an iPhone 17e.
Thats not the point. There is a difference between someone spending a lot of money on compute and never use it vs. doing the same thing.
Its like buying a porsch and driving it always at 100km only.
My wife has gone through a large number of iPhones in the past 14 years, where as I've had a total of 2 android phones. Way easier to repair, and add software well past the end of life date.
Perhaps a bit pedantic, but ironically I don't think Chevrolet makes any normal price range hybrids atm
There used to be a pretty big gap between iPhone and android in terms of polish. that gap keeps narrowing, but it is still there for sure.
I have an iPhone and an Android phone and I don't see the gap at all when it comes to software. Quite the opposite, I think iOS regressed a lot with iOS 26 to the point where I see quite a lot of render stutters on an iPhone Air and 17 Pro. Besides that, Android is much more configurable (especially OneUI).
Apple is still the indisputable leader when it comes to hardware though. Great SoC, great cameras, great build quality.
Too bad it doesn't have GrapheneOS :).
Is there, though? The last few iOS releases have been pretty classless and inconsistent, imho.
That gap isn’t closing when it comes to the total package software plus hardware, and fit and finish there is a huge gap between Apple being a vertical computer company and whatever PC, Linux, Android product you look at, someone else brought up Toyota or Honda when you look at those two companies and you compare what they make to what GM and Ford make there is still a gap and you can also still see a gap when you talk about some of the other German companies when it comes to fit and finish too.
The classic slashdot comment!
Nah, let's just throw a new web framework at them that consumes all their newfound computing capacity. Always leave em' wanting more
Do you think there’s some cabal of executives trying to use more resources so that users are forced buy newer hardware?
Or is it more likely that software companies are making a tradeoff based on typical consumer hardware and would rather prioritize making $$$ over optimizing their software?
And liquid ass.
You sound like ESR ranting about how Apple was doomed by Android back when the iPhone came out. He would rant and rant every time about how there was no conceivable way that Apple could survive. Somehow, Apple has managed to survive by the skin of it's teeth.../s
Hey other Mark Watson :)
You all laugh but yeah your brain is going to directly interface with some small portable client hooked up to the internet. Will probably just be integrated with the microchip in your head.
How about open and rotate for 1.4x zoom?
If Apple continues like that, in 10 years it won’t exist
in 10 years any phone should be able to wirelessly stream it to any monitor / tv and plenty of those will be everywhere
We can do this now, but I don't think the user experience makes it worth it compared to casting. Bandwidth limitations require lower frame rates and responsiveness, which is fine for video but bad for interactive apps (most phones are native 120+hz + VRR_. But re-encoding video is (processor & battery life) expensive and probably lower quality than the original stream.
People who do this a lot probably just use a DV adapter (maybe it just works with USB-C, but I haven't tried it) for native apps, or casting for streaming video.
Right — I would have hoped a while ago already that we transcend past the notion of an endpoint device. A tablet, a laptop, or a phone should all just be entry points to access my one OS instance.
You could think this a bit further still, and have all kinds of devices offer an interface to nearby endpoints with a display or controls, establishing connectivity automatically.
I'm really sad that the ubuntu phone dream was never realized
Right now, Apple is the only vertical company out there at scale. Maybe one of the Chinese companies might eventually get there but who is this western company other than Apple? It certainly isn’t Google or Microsoft at this point their efforts are more halfhearted me-too products, and when I say hardware, I mean in-house designed and engineered hardware not buying it from somebody else.
Apple does this right now. I use AirPlay to extend one laptop into an older laptop so I can have 2 displays when I’m away from home
There is a difference between laptop and a phone. Hopefully in the future phone can be switched to a full desktop mode and OS when it beams to large screen. Well that is unless by then we have chip in our brains or what's equally bad everything rented and leased and can be used from any physical location. Convenient but deadly.
I mean you kinda can do that now.
>"kinda" - is a keyword. experience is abysmal, especially when it works but true desktop paradigm is not supported
>"I find Dex to be decent enough" - I guess it is very personal. I find it atrocious. Not this and not that. My instincts are screwed
[flagged]
I presume you're trying to be friendly here, but your first couple sentences come off a bit harsh.
I like that he's well into his life and still enjoying writing (or authoring, or whatever we call it now) code, and looks forward to a nice long life. No one lives forever, and I'm sure he's aware of that.
Yeah I'm quite old myself and that's ok. I find that sometimes we put off things unnecessarily. Life is short, enjoy it.
I take it this is a joke? I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding.
Edit: I don’t know of anyone 75 still coding outside of retired professors here and there. I am not trying to be an ageist. I just don’t think I will be physically capable when I am 75.
It doesn't seem like a joke?
>"I am in my 50s and don’t see myself staring at screens for too long, let alone coding."
I am 65 and still enjoy software development (not coding in particular) but decomposing business idea into software architecture and functionality. Decomposing is the part I really enjoy, the rest is a necessity but with AI that rest takes way less of my time than it used to.
I do not work for someone though. I develop products for clients or for my own business, was doing it all my life and was doing it from my own office for last 26 years. Not overworked either. Have enough time to enjoy life. Al in all very happy
As a recent Android foldable phone owner (Google Pixel), I'm excited that the Duo will get developers to actually design apps for foldables. Right now, some apps don't work at all and others are just stretched. I feel a better use of the screen space is around the corner for both Android foldable and Duo users.
As a dev who regularly works on apps for both platforms, I think one of the main causes for poor support for form factors beyond a standard smartphone on Android boils down to Google refusing to give developers fully fleshed out APIs to support said form factors.
Instead, they just hand you some poorly documented loose parts in a box and tell you, “good luck” and you’re on your own to fill the gaps. Compose is a little better about giving the tools you need than the preceding Android Framework, but it’s still much more “assembly required” and “batteries not included” than the UIKit+SwiftUI world is.
Many iOS apps built using system components will behave 90%+ correctly on the Duo by just compiling against the iOS 27.1 SDK because there are well supported methods of doing things that Apple can leverage to reduce dev work. In contrast, on Android there's 10 ways of doing anything none of which get full-throated support (on top of all the other ways devs invent), and so any time it gains support for a new form factor almost nothing is automatic and it all falls on the devs’ shoulders.
> Instead, they just hand you some poorly documented loose parts in a box and tell you, “good luck” and you’re on your own to fill the gaps.
Google is fundamentally a spy company, not a product company
All of FAANG is, if we're being cynically reductive.
???
WindowSizeClasses, Postures, Navigation3, ListDetailScaffolds, the list goes on. Android & Compose is pretty much flawless when it comes to develop for it, it's thoroughly documented and works well.
Layouts will not magically be not dog shit on iOS because Apple put out another version of SwiftUI that you can't use in prod because nobody has the update. 90% of the apps will be stretched. Horizontally. The reality of it is, it's pretty much never worth it to make layouts that are specialised for foldables/tablets.
Also, it's pretty fucking funny to be worshipping Apple like that when they have a single device to support, and then complain about Android that literally had to pave the way and today works on phones that can unfold three times, phones like the galaxy Z Flip that have instead half screens, etc. Apple will tell you they can't back port dynamic islands on last year's release, while latest Compose is happily running on devices from 10 years ago.
> WindowSizeClasses, Postures, Navigation3, ListDetailScaffolds, the list goes on.
Yes, those are the loose parts. They still have to be assembled correctly for everything to work as expected and every app does it a bit differently (there is effectively no endorsed "correct" way to assemble them). This means that Google cannot extend them with new functionality later without breaking some if not most usages of those parts in the future.
Compare that to UITabController in UIKit, which has been present since very early on and got extended recently. If the dev adopts iOS 18 revisions, configuring that single view controller gets you more or less correct presentation and navigation across all sizes and orientations of normal iPhone, iPad, desktop, and now iPhone Duo and implementation is close to identical between apps.
> …and then complain about Android that literally had to pave the way and today works on phones that can unfold three times, phones like the galaxy Z Flip that have instead half screens, etc.
That's fair, but users can't reasonably expect any kind of meaningful adoption of new oddball form factors like that until the platform vendor (Google) rolls out standardized APIs to streamline the process (which Google has partially done, but won't commit to a unified solution for).
> Apple will tell you they can't back port dynamic islands on last year's release, while latest Compose is happily running on devices from 10 years ago.
That is an advantage, but iOS users tend to stay much more up to date so it's something of a moot point. The userbase of versions just three major releases behind is typically below 5% and anything older is fractional at best, so unless you're a Google-scale giant you're probably fine only supporting the newest 2-3 versions of iOS. That's pretty nice since I don't need to keep a drawer full of prehistoric phones running ancient versions of Android to test adequately (so I don't find out about some weird behavior that only occurs under Android 11 in prod)…
It would depend on the sales volume. For a long time the iPad has been available and many developers simply are content to have a stretched version of their iPhone app on their iPad, because the sales volume isn’t sufficient. If foldable phones sell like iPads, this could very well happen to them too.
Exactly, I remember until recently even instagram didn’t have a proper iPad app that uses the complete screen space
Same here. I ditched the google pixel fold after a year because the hardware had some issues, also tbh I prefer the iOS ecosystem. I’m so glad this is coming out.
> "A large fraction of the flaws in software development are due to programmers not fully understanding all the possible states their code may execute in."
This is a quote from John Carmack and should sit over every developers monitor. At the same time, OS designers should be doing everything in their power to reduce the number of states a developer has to think about.
Like one of the things I hate about frontend development - and admire people who do this professionally - is the stupid and arbitrary rules browsers impose on you.
'You may only play audio if such and such conditions are met. However these are different based on browser and platform. Good luck making a solution fitting all these.'
'The browser might lie about what's the available screen estate is, but only sometimes'
'There is a perfect API for what you wanna do, however it's not in Safari'
And a testament on how obscure and arcane knowledge is on doing things right is that I thought there would be some npm packages that do these things for me, but no - you have to hunt around for solutions and fix things yourself.
And LLMs are completely useless and confidently wrong mostly about everything involving this.
I don't want to be pessimistic, but I can see a single app now showing two different feeds to doomscroll.
Subway surfers and tiktok at the same time. The future is now chud.
Instagram posts on one side and reels on the other side
> As a recent Android foldable phone owner (Google Pixel)
"There are dozens of us!" (not me though, I wouldn't buy a Pixel foldable)
Developers will design apps for Apple's foldables.
Cross-platform is a thing.
If anyting, Apple stands to gain from what was already developed for Android.
Like https://developer.android.com/phones-tablets-foldables
Which targets iOS also: https://kotlinlang.org/compose-multiplatform
React Native and Flutter are way more popular than KMM/CM, and yet both have struggled to support even small iOS visual changes in a timely fashion.
This is ignoring the fact that developers who choose these cross-platform frameworks don't seem to care much about quality and general polish.
It is a thing to some extent, but there’s also a correlation of companies that do cross-platform for simple apps being cheap on development, and making it work very well on some specific platform isn’t their priority.
Thought it will bring "desiging for foldables" onto the table which would benefit Android foldables too.
Foldables seem like Homer's car to me. It's a worse phone and a worse tablet all in one.
For reference:
https://media.wired.com/photos/593252a1edfced5820d0fa07/3:2/...
It seems like it would be really useful for a frequent traveler/commuter, to be able to watch something on a flight/bus ride. I would definitely consider it if I were in that demographic
I had one and I can’t wait to but the iphone fold. I think you’re lacking imagination if you don’t think this is the future
Just like people complaining about "phablets" a decade ago right? "more bulky than a phone, smaller than a tablet"?
[delayed]
Did the “phablets” take over the world?
The original "phablet" was the Samsung Galaxy Note, considered comically large. At 147mm x 83mm, it's about the same size as the iPhone 18 Pro (150mm x 72mm)
100% there’s no “normal size” iPhones anymore
I mean kinda, yeah. Since that's literally the only kind of smartphone you can get nowadays.
theyre actually quite nice, and the added redudancy that you still have a perfectly working phone when one of the screens breaks is great.
the phone-ness is exactly the same, but i dont think anyone actually needs a full tablet, but an unfolded screen is just right for say, reading a diff on the bus.
I was much more impressed by the phone->tablet fold than i was expecting to be.
Clamshell phones were essentially the default design 2 decades ago and people have been talking about folding phones ever since, really. Folding is a unique way to overcome the ever present size issues/comments; however, it looks like the manufacturers have taken an alternate approach and used folding to double the size rather than halve it.
Modern foldable phones are, fundamentally, different than clamshell phones like a Motorola razor
the motorola razr is actually quite similar in the old and new variation though?
It's barely worse phone, and it's a much better table. My argument for the tablet is that if it was a separate device I would basically never use it because it's inconvenient.
It's bigger and heavier than a phone.
It has a smaller display with a crease[1] and has less battery than a tablet. The screen is even smaller than an iPad mini. IMO that form factor only really works for like a Kindle.
And the screen has a matte finish which is only going to reduce contrast.
[1] https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1wbx1wo/there_is_a_cr...
Anybody who mentions the crease hasnt used a folding phone in the last 3 years. Come on just try one
You made a generalization about foldables. I don't have an iPhone I have a pixel. The screen is a normal phone screen on the outside. The weight doesn't bother me, it's smaller than my last phone and very slightly thicker which is still very thin, the crease is completely non issue and it's much worse on my phone than the iPhone. Battery is better than my last phone.
> less battery than a tablet
iPad mini battery life ~10-15 hours, iPhone duo 30+ hours so no...
Matte finishes are great for viewing outdoors too...
Apple claims 30+ hours yes but when using a single screen.
I'll give John Ternus credit: the demos are interesting and fun.
Maybe not $2k fun + inherent risk with buying the first generation of an Apple product particularly after the Apple Vision Pro, but still.
I agree. The demos were great. They really showed off how things you already do today are "better" on two screens. This is in contrast to the Vision Pro where the demos were of things that were neat but I can't see myself needing (watching 3D captures, watching a big virtual cinema screen).
I think this will be a hit, but the $2k is a bit much for me to even consider getting one. Obviously they'll likely drop that price over time.
It’s the exact same price point as the Samsung Z Fold 8, which is this phone’s exact competitor.
$2k is a lot to ask, but it answers the market 100% on “I’d like a Samsung Fold 8, but as an iPhone”.
Difference is that the Fold 8 started at 2000 Euro (compared to 2339 Euro including VAT for the Duo) and can now be bought here already for 1500 new.
That's 800 Euro less and Samsung will mostly decrease prices further while Apple will barely.
It's a shame Samsung dropped stylus support after the 6, but I guess the 8 is a good bit lighter weight than the duo.
honestly it's why I am not updating from Fold 5... the stylus is the part that truly differentiated it
Is it really the first generation though? The screen is obviously 1st gen for Apple, but you'd think the rest of it is not: OS, battery, camera.
Considering the most important parts of the Duo are the screen and the hinge, yes it's a first generation device.
It'll be interesting to see how many/how quickly apps adopt the UI that lets you make the most of the foldable screen. If it doesn't sell in big numbers app developers might not feel the need to and the user experience will be subpar. ...but I suspect it will.
> It'll be interesting to see how many/how quickly apps adopt the UI that lets you make the most of the foldable screen.
For iOS 27, apps are automatically automatically opted in to resizability. Apple was clear at WWDC that apps need to dynamically adjust to any available scene size at runtime, not just for iPhone Duo, but also for iPad windowing and iPhone Mirroring on Mac. There may be a grace period, but Apple hasn't shared one AFAIK.
Well, at the very least the ability to have a larger browser screen on landscape or having two apps side by side is already good on its own.
The previously released iPhone Air looks very similar to the fold, and I believe it even used the Apple modem C1 generation.
There is a lot of software support needed to make this work great. So first generation of all that for sure.
Admittedly, software that's influenced by the iPad and iPhone, so there is new software, but it's not that new. Multitasking in iOS has been a thing for a while (iPad).
I'm not trying to discount the efforts involved here, just pointing out that they aren't starting from scratch. And much of the required features to support a dual-screen (triple-?) phone has been in the works for a while.
Well, the screen is the new/groundbreaking part!
The Apple Vision Pro was a rare early entry into a field. Usually they wait until the technology is established and the userbase is just starting to take off, as is currently the case with folding phone displays.
Samsung has already worked out the major kinks for folding displays, over dozens of products used by multiple phone manufacturers including themselves, and Android has worked out how to handle the various use cases between the outer screen and inner screen, when closed, open, or partially open, so Apple can pull from the current state of the art and launch with a more fully developed product, as they usually did before the Apple Vision Pro.
>The Apple Vision Pro was a rare early entry into a field.
It was not an early entry into the field. Many well established devices already existed. It was an uncharacteristic entrance into a niche.
Which is exactly what foldable phones are. 1.6% of phone sales in 2025 were foldable.
Maybe they will take off. But the odds are this will be discontinued.
The reason I have hope is that Apple is the only company with a serious Tablet OS. When you unfold this, essentially you have an iPad Mini.
The screen real estate is bigger than the numbers indicate, as the more square a display is, the larger its area is compared to its diagonal.
I find it sad that they're doing it all pre-recorded.
Yeah, I wish they would go back to live, or at least parts of it live. They did a great job during the pandemic but it has lost some humanity and authenticity.
Especially with the studio recorded voices that uncannily don’t quite match the video.
Live was fine for Steve Jobs most people aren’t Steve Jobs who had the gift.
They still had other presenters at those.
Let a video do the big reveal and overview then let the people talk about details or do demos.
I don’t know exactly toy. But there must be something with a little more life.
They're still as cringe as they've been for years; with fake hand movements and marketing-pilled bs postures.
The marketing pilled postures seem to have been toned down a bit.
I wish they would stop changing speakers every other sentence though. I swear drone cameras were the worst thing to happen to video, I'm gettin seasick over here!
> I wish they would stop changing speakers every other sentence though
Apple employees get to claim very little ownership over their work (even in the context of a large tech company), so having all those speaker slots is one way they can provide that ego boost that is so crucial for long term employee morale & retention
> with fake hand movements
I don't get this complaint. People talk with their hands, it'd look more fake if they just stood there all stiff and wooden.
Hand movements are fine, but the comment is right that these come off as incredibly fake.
I wish these posts came with a demo video of you doing it better.
$2K starting price is rough. I’ve upgraded my iPhone every year since my first phone, the 3GS. It’s one of a few “splurge”-type things I allow myself. It’s a hobby and just fun to play with the new hotness. This year might break the cycle.
I don’t care for the 18 Pro colors, I still love my orange 17 Pro, and I’m not sold on the Duo (functionality or price).
I might still end up with a Duo but I’m very much on the fence. I’ll tell myself it’s for development/testing reasons, or just to play with the newest offering but I’m just not sure. I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did. Yes, it’s very different from the AVP and SwiftUI will almost certainly make this process easier but I’m still not sure.
> I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did
Pretty sure that developer interest is not to be a problem. The Duo will sell more units in a month (or less) than every AVP ever sold.
Apple told developers in June at WWDC to not assume fixed screen sizes. Well-written apps will work on any screen size thanks to Apple's APIs.
Some apps will need to be tweaked to take advantage of some Duo features no doubt, but I suspect that's not going to be a deal breaker.
Agree - this is going to have pretty wide adoption.
I’m in the exact same situation. Been upgrading every year for a long time (via the Upgrade Programme, making doing so more or less “free”). I was absolutely jazzed they finally did an orange phone, and this is the first year in a while that…I just don’t care. The Duo is far more expensive than I could ever entertain (plus buying a first-gen Apple product has never been a good idea), and there is quite literally nothing in the 18 Pro that makes me want to upgrade.
I may be swayed by a second gen Air in the spring, as I would like a lighter phone that feels less of an imposition in my pocket and my life in general. But it almost certainly won’t have the zoom camera, which has unexpectedly become one of my favourite and most used features of the 17 Pro. Why the two-camera phones all come with the ultrawide instead of the telephoto is baffling to me. Perhaps I’m an anomaly, but I never use the ultrawide lens.
> making doing so more or less “free”
except for those monthly payments you never get to stop making, yeah it's free.
Why do you think I put “free” in quotes? Realistically I was never going to keep the phone longer than the two year finance term anyway, because back when I started doing it a two-year old phone would be really starting to show its age running newer software. So I could either pay monthly and get a phone every two years, or pay monthly and get a phone every year.
Of course, these days a three or four or more year old phone is often still perfectly usable even for a tech enthusiast.
To get close to the same functionality as the Duo, you'd buy an iPhone 18 Pro ($1199) plus an iPad mini ($599); that gets you to $1,798. If you want more storage than the entry level iPhone 18 Pro or iPad mini, you're going to surpass $2000 pretty quickly.
> I worry this will suffer from the same lack of developer interest as the AVP did
Apple can force iOS devs to do whatever they want. It may be basic support, but Apple devs will do whatever Apple tells them to do.
Just checked the price in my home country (Brazil) and it's fantastic: the Duo starts at BRL 21999, which is roughly USD 4300.
You could do the leasing route if you upgrade every year. Might pinch less.
If leasing a fucking phone isn't a sign of the times then I don't know what is.
People have been leasing phones since at least the mid naughties, they just did it via their carrier. I distinctly remember standing in the Alltel store in 2006-ish, before it got gobbled up by ATT, and wondering if I could afford the extra $15/mo that the new Nokia candybar phone would run me. The only thing that's new is that Apple is offering it directly.
You could and still can do both from your carrier, it's pretty standard. In my experience, it's somewhat uncommon for people to actually buy their phones outright unless you make a lot of money (like the folks who tend to frequent HN). Every two years, my wife and I would sign up for a new 24-month contract, which would include two new phones. After those 24 months, we could keep paying off the remainder of the phones and keep them, or we could return them and start a new contract with new phones.
> Are you telling me people rented nokia bricks in the aughts?
Myself and my family did, for sure. My parents made me pay my own phone bill too, so I spent a long time in the Alltel shop staring at the different phones and probably annoying the clerk.
I mean, you might find this hard to believe since you have a fixed view, but I'm old enough that we had one of those old-school rotary phones. My family literally leased that phone as part of our phone bill up until the late 90s. I recall at one point we were forced to trade the rotary for a push button since the telecom was discontinuing support. When "caller id" became a new feature it only worked for the first while on the rented phones.
To this day, I suspect many people have a line-item on their Internet bill for their modem/router rental/lease.
Why you would find this hard to believe is actually the curious thing to me.
1. You can buy it outright at the end of the term by paying the remainder of the sticker price if you really want to keep it.
2. If you’re upgrading your phone on a one or two year cycle, you end up paying the sticker price minus the trade in value at the end of the term.
I don’t really see an issue in either scenario?
Most people are short-term thinkers if you talk to anyone around you at work, school or at home and if you merely suggest saving and controlling their spending briefly to buy something in the future good luck. I have given up.
I just buy more shares of blue chip companies and let them pay in the future for anything I want to buy.
A little bit of this, a little bit of that, we know the average, but we don't know how much time each of us has on this earth.
If leasing a fucking phone isn't a sign of the times then I don't know what is.
People have been leasing and renting phones since the 1930's. I guess you missed out on the Ma Bell century.
Then you’d like the upgrade program? The only difference is there is a final balloon payment for it to be yours. You end up paying exactly the same as paying up front.
Wait for 2nd gen, always
It's high, but Apple's financing arm has it at $84/month, which is a bit more stomachable if you really want it.
I don’t think it’ll face the developer interest problem. Devs go where the money is and consumers seem to love foldables.
I like that blue though.
I don't know, $1999 seems almost kinda reasonable considering how much an iPhone Pro costs and how utterly fucked the current memory prices are.
We keep putting more powerful chips into phones, and giving them bigger screens, but we never turn them into useful computers. Why is this?
I think it's clear that Apple has recognized that their target markets don't care to have useful computers. Just look way back to when Steve Jobs was still alive and he was talking about how "PCs are going to be like trucks. Fewer people will need them. And this is going to make some people uneasy."
They could certainly add features to make them more like general purpose computers, but there's a bit of product development and engineering "tax" they'd have to pay over time to maintain that aspect. Much easier from a product development standpoint to create products that provide a walled-garden experience, especially if that's what most customers want.
The truck metaphor is actually incredibly apt, because if you want to do "truck stuff" with your PC, a lot of people think you can't do that on a phone, but 90% of what people need a beefy computer for could be done on a phone if we had that kind of culture around it.
Macbook pros for a lot of us are effectively like daily driving a lifted Ford Raptor with a snorkel. Most of what I do on my personal device I easily could do on a Chromebook or tablet, and pretty much all of the rest is entirely possible on a Chromebook with the Linux subsystem setup (which is what I did pre-Macbook). It's like if I'd setup an expensive truck for off-roading, but in the end it turned out to be aspirational and I only take it somewhere that can't handle a Subaru Outback once or twice a year.
Trucks analogy is interesting. I (temporarily) live in the US South and trucks are 3:1 to all other vehicles here.
So true. Whether people need them or not, people will spend the money to buy them.
Steve Jobs didn't foresee that Americans would basically only buy trucks (and SUVs) in 20 years. You can barely buy a sedan in the US anymore.
Maybe small phones are like sedans, and the bigger and bigger iPhones are the trucks? Take this analogy where you will.
If that's the case, then why do we go to work on a computer instead of a phone? Oh, wait. A screen. A mouse, a keyboard. Really, if they wanted to, you could simply dock your phone and have that experience if the company was willing to put in the time.
Globally, mobile+tablet crossed 50% of web traffic in October 2016 (51.3% vs. desktop's 48.7%) [0]. For the world minus HN, we’re entering the second decade of phones being useful computers for the most common definition of useful.
[0](https://gs.statcounter.com/press/mobile-and-tablet-internet-...)
I have a Chromebook with an ~11 inch screen. It’s basically the minimum size where a keyboard is still useable. I like it a lot, but it’s actually too big when I want to use it as a tablet.
I think this is the tension. Or maybe we just need to master one handed keyboards.
Samsung dex really excited me when I tried it, but it still had a little ways to go. I am shocked it's not a bigger priority.
Esp for Samsung as they don't have a consumer PC division that they would be concerned about killing...
“Useful computer” is subjective. It seems to be difficult for HN users to imagine a device that doesn’t have a terminal for example, but the overwhelming majority of users simply do not care. Many of them manage just fine with a smartphone as their primary (if not their only) computer, so clearly they are useful enough.
Android is getting close, with Google adding desktop support akin to Samsung's Dex when the phone is connected to a dock.
Apple has had a patent[1] for like a decade at this point which involved placing an iPhone into a slot on a laptop so it could be used in a laptop form, with the phone itself serving as the touchpad.
[1]: https://www.tomsguide.com/news/apple-patents-device-that-doc...
Edit to add: the phone itself is intended to be the main processing unit, the “laptop” is just a screen and keyboard.
At this point I don't even really need a phone. Nobody makes calls anymore and I can use my watch for 911 calls.
What I need is a more portable iPad. But that would cannibalize iPhone sales.
abuse over a monopoly is the reason. probably you already knew that though?
if they made it a useful computer, they couldnt charge 30% of revenue to their app store customers
That seems to be entirely the purpose of this device. Instead of just a larger display, it's meant to provide a "second monitor" for multitasking or more context.
With terminal emulators, tailscale, local and remote agents, there's never been so much computing capability accessible from your pocket before.
The 7.6" screen here is far too small to function as a second monitor type device. This is going to be for pure content consumption
If you still need a remote computer to do your work, in what way are you doing work on the phone?
I would love it if I could use it as a second monitor when working in a coffee shop or library. Unfortunately universal control was pretty solid at launch and then just completely left to die
What do you want to do on your iPhone that you can't do now?
Run game emulators with JIT. Currently you have to accept emulators either running very slow without JIT, or go through massive hurdles to enable it.
That feels like an exceptionally niche use case
Retro game emulation isn't mainstream but "exceptionally niche" is overstating it.
Have you seen how the average person uses their phone?
You want what, a terminal that you type on w/an onscreen keyboard?
Lots of computers have external keyboards, mice, and displays. Why not a powerful computer like the iPhone? Who cares if it's small? Lots of SBCs are small and are quite useful. This one even has a built in UPS.
You can literally use all those things with an iPhone. Including all at the same time.
So I don't know what you're complaining about?
you can connect those things though right? or you want a mouse and keyboard attached by default like a tiny laptop?
Apple's lack of vision and fear of innovation. Jobs is gone. We're back to 90s Apple. Dumb ideas become dumb products, and no one has the balls to say, No.
It's easier to make an existing thing better. But far harder to come up with a new idea.
You can get something quite useable these days by plugging a pixel into a USB dock with a monitor and a keyboard + mouse
Android Desktop mode looks so promising, it just needs to support higher resolutions/refresh rates but this is probably a side effect of at least the Pixel having weaker performance versus other flagships.
Although I can’t wait for the more powerful Motorolas with GOS to release. Maybe that’d be enough to make a phone my sole computing device.
How are you gonna do mandatory age verification on a full fledged computer?
do you not consider your phone a "useful computer"?
I'm guessing they mean one of the following:
-Installing software without App Store approval filtering
-True multi-tasking and background execution (though this hurts battery)
-Write iOS apps from an iPad
I certainly don't. You simply cannot get actual work done on a phone anywhere near as easily as on a real computer. There's a reason that companies issue laptops (or have desktops even) instead of giving employees a phone.
Artificial limitations open many new avenues for new and exciting revenue streams.
The moment apple ship MacOS on their iPads, sales for their macbooks will all but collapse.
Will they though? They would capture more windows users. They already have the Neo actually. iPad still has another job mainly around simpler tasks. I’ve not yet got to love the Macosy windows management.
What are you talking about?
A MacBook is optimized for a larger screen and comes with a better keyboard and trackpad.
I use both my MacBook and iPad all the time, because their hardware form factors are better for different things.
I don't want to read books on my MacBook and I don't want to do development or writing on my iPad.
I briefly tried using my iPad as a Mac through the screen sharing. It's not as useful as you are imagining.
That's what I thought when they announced the folding phone, but iPad sales
Have you ever tried to do serious work on a tablet?
Absolutely sales of laptops would continue.
Have you ever connected an iPad to an external display, mouse, and keyboard? I agree with you that laptop sales would continue, but I bet they would decline. Apple could do the MS Surface much better than MS did.
I mean my iPad Pro + Magic Keyboard case has fully replaced my Mac for everything. I haven’t touched my Mac in months. I literally do all of my work via GitHub Codespaces (soon to be self-hosted Coder). Yes it’s not all on device but it works (for me).
I don’t see anything in my use case that I’d gain from a MacBook over this setup.
Let’s just ignore the price comparison though lol
and increase power usage?
This is the biggest disappointment, imagine running a full blown "Ubuntu Touch" that gives you the freedom of Linux with full root access. This is the biggest failure of legislation in the 21st century so far that has enabled a strict Android/iOS duopoly.
I sincerely hope one day we can free these hardware devices from the shakles of their software and run anything that's possible.
Until such a time iOS devices are strictly off limits until at least a grapheneOS can run iOS at a minimum.
You can already run postmarketOS or PureOS on a phone and get the full desktop mode with no restrictions, except the computing power.
* Select models only. Limitations and restrictions apply. Warranty void in all countries.
[dead]
There’s a standard for paper sizes called the ISO 216 international standard, aka A-series paper sizes. You may be familiar with it outside of the American 8.5”x11” letter size. The simplicity, for example, where an A3 sheet is exactly twice the area of A4. One A3 sheet folded in half becomes two A4 sheets. This is intentional: when you fold or divide an A-series sheet exactly in half, the resulting sheets have the same proportions as the prior. The aspect ratio is preserved across all A-series paper sizes.
The iPhone Duo is designed with this in mind. The aspect ratio any way you view it, folded or open, is preserved. Apple design knows a thing or two.
It was useful for paper because it helped save time in cutting, folding, printing etc. None of that matters for a phone.
This is such a non issue given that iOS developers already have so many resolutions to test.
> None of that matters for a phone.
Of course it does. They show the most basic example right on the page, which is that you can side-by-side full screen apps.
This would matter for bigger versions of the same thing. For side-by-side, the aspect ratio is unimportant since you naturally unfold to have two of them.
I think the person you are responding to is not thinking visually. They basically seem (to me) to think reformat-flowed fixes this, and that having the view of a web page alter because you open a book, is "not a bad thing" when you (and I) are of the view, if you maintain the aspect ratio and simply decimate how many pixels are available to show it, the actual "change" in the layout is kept to a minimum WHICH IS THE INHERENT GOOD HERE -the whole point of the A, B and C series is that the scaling function preserves the ratio of sizes of the contents, under the quality change of bigger or smaller fidelity of presentation.
Unless there is some upsight I am missing, I think the OP just "doesn't get it"
>If you unfold a square, you don't get two squares.
yes, you do. Two squares will fold together into the space of one square, and the same with 2 A4 sheets of paper, or two 8½x11 sheets of paper, two of them will fold together to make one of them.
Hm, my folding phone doesnt have this aspect ratio and I can still do that.
it's a neat tidbit, but not important in the slightest imo. Probably helps with smoothly transitioning between modes, but that's not been a particular pain from my foldable use.
>I think they intended to continue "... without changing their aspect ratios"
but the context was "see, you can have two different apps running side by side, each with the same aspect ratio as either of the apps when run in the space of the folded screen. not only the same aspect ratio, but the same dimensions"
the whole A3/4/5 scheme is completely overblown as a feature for consumers. You format a document for A4, ok, but you wouldn't print that document A5 because the fonts would be completely shrunken. nobody does that. We use word processors to format documents for the space we have, and we don't ever print wedding invites on A3 or A4
this isn't great design, it's tautology. of course the phone open is twice the size of it closed. it would be hard to make it otherwise.
You are not answering the parent comment. If the original aspect ratio was a square, making the "full screen" aspect ratio 1:1, then folded out it would have aspect ratio 2:1, fitting two squares side by side.
The sqrt(2) aspect ratio allows a portrait full app to be scaled up to the exactly to the folded out screen. But does anyone want that? You probably want to fit more content on the bigger screen, so some layout necessarily changes.
But its two states. What do you mean “all the way down?”
Yes, I do understand the issue with the aspect ratio, which is indeed good design, but parent comment's example is that "you can run two apps side by side" is the tautology. Well, at least since the invention of double-entry bookkeeping and getting rid of Archimedian phone design.
What app is going to design to flow nicely with a iPhone Duo but not a iPhone 18? Unless Apple has a 1.4:1 ratio across their entire product line, app designers have to deal with variation.
Also, when you rotate the device, the ratio changes. This is especially common when unfolding a foldable.
The difference is that it has the same aspect ratio folded and unfolded. If you look at other folding phones the inside screen is twice the area, but the shape of the phone is different. 1 : sqrt(2) is the only ratio where you can fold one side in half and the ratio stays 1:sqrt(2). Any other ratio of sides and the inside and outside have different ratios. Therefore, things have to move around, or scale.
Yes, but 1:√2 keeps the ratio even when you rotate the screen vertically. A folded 1:1 screen becomes 2:1 when "unfolded" and the area doubles, so you can go from showing one 1:1 window to two 1:1 windows side by side. But when rotated to a vertical orientation, you can't just scale that 1:1 window to double its size. With 1:√2 you can.
But apps can just rejigger into widths that fit. It would be more of an issue back when mobile sites were first becoming responsive and we pragmatically chose 2 or 3 media query widths to serve different layouts and then applied the same thinking to mobile apps. Of course the initial mobile apps, particularly on iPhone, stuck to just one and later just a few sizes themselves. As there was a wider range we did things more responsively on a continuum.
I still think the broader point of there being design reasons to hit these ratios stands and is great. I just think the idea that it needed to be precisely twice the width so apps can fit full-sized doesn't hold too much because there isn't really a "full size" notion. Or if there is, the full-size is probably the double width one. If it wasn't exactly twice the width, most apps are already built to fit into varying iPhone/mobile screen widths.
^^This.
Despite all the responsive design tools and declarative layouts to ensure a great layout even on an oddball resolution... the fact is that in practice it's nontrivial, and remember that the companies that make most of the apps you use have finite design and QA budgets. They need to actually use the resolution in question in order to really do a good job of designing for it, and giving them double the work, for a $2000 and up phone which probably won't be super highly adopted, is a recipe for getting apps that end up with layouts that aren't optimized properly on one (or both) of the screen sizes.
This is already something every app needs to deal with on iPad, where users can arbitrarily resize apps and windows. And apps that support landscape layout on phones have always needed to support their UI being rendered in different aspect ratios.
At WWDC this year, Apple introduced a tool[0] to let developers arbitrarily resize their simulated iOS device screens.
Flexibility and adaptivity are more front-and-center for iOS devs than ever.
[0]https://developer.apple.com/documentation/xcode/configuring-...
I agree it will feel super nice to go from the front screen to the dual screen and have nothing "move". And similarly it will feel "mildly infuriating" if it doesn't do that.
I also think that I (personally) don't need a front screen and would love to have whatever cost savings or improvements would come if there weren't one. This last sentence is of course a me thing, but I mention it because I think that if people start on the front screen and then open the Duo, they may just want the full screen app or something else entirely. I'm not sure the use case of being in your banking app device folded, deciding midway through flow to open it, and wanting to be in the same UI is really what I want. The part I question is what's going on that step 2 came about—I think it's either you want to go into more depth on it or you're just opening the device the way you would had you not been in your banking app.
The case where I open it to find the app using half the screen and then I have to press something or drag something to make it full screen is not that great (and isn't great today with current iPad window resizing). The best case I can think of for wanting the app in the same size format when I open it is for is something like multitasking, I guess we'll see how that looks or feels and how you get the second app open (or whether it's very common use case anyway).
In general, I've long felt the folding tech is for tablet use cases not for phone use cases. I think Apple's foray (finally) into it more or less validates that. Even though there will be a meaningful number of people buying it to replace their phone, I think this is largely because their phone use is already tablet use case-y (for entertainment especially). I assume many people will also buy it as a(n expensive) tablet replacement in addition to their phone, which is perhaps related to the timing of iPhone Handoff (same SIM on two phones) too.
Apps already work on Apple devices with many different aspect ratios.
But you still do need to support different aspect ratios if you want your app to work on any other iPhone models, because many of them differ.
Even if it were true you would also have to design the app for when the device is rotated.
Easier to support one more aspect-ratio then two.
Unless these things start selling like hot-cakes (unlikely at the price) a lot of developers just might not bother.
Proportions absolutely matter for displays, both for aesthetic comfort and for efficient scaling. Most of the world uses ISO216 and its pleasing 1:sqrt(2) proportions. Leveraging aspect ratios with wide acceptance is a win both psychologically and for graphic designers.
The algebra proving why "halving long side H and flipping maintains aspect ratio" implies a ratio of 1:sqrt(2):
H/W = W/(H/2) (halving long side H and flipping maintains aspect ratio)
= 2W/H (multiply numerator and denominator by 2)
H² = 2W² (multiply both sides by HW)
H = √2·W ≈ 1.41 W (take the positive square root; H, W > 0)Our world is full of artifacts from a previous ages and using some of those as standards is useful/convenient.
We still use QWERTY keyboards even though our highly futuristic typewriters don't jam anymore. We type commands on tty teleTypeWriter, we save files with buttons using a floppy disk icon, etc etc.
The way this comment was going I was pleasantly surprised to see that the iPhone Duo adhered to the ISO standard.
From Apple's diagonal measurements [1], it looks like the screen is actually a few mm off from the closest ISO 216 sizes.
d = 7.58in = 192.532mm [1]
d^2 = w^2+h^2
Unfolded:
h = d/sqrt(3) = ~111.1584mm
w = h*sqrt(2) = ~157.2017mm
Closest ISO 216 size: A6 (105x148)
Folded:
D = 5.36in = 136.114mm [1]
H = D/sqrt(3) = ~78.5855mm
W = H*sqrt(2) = ~111.1366mm
Closest ISO 216 size: A7 (74x105)
I always forget the US doesn't use A4 etc. (or do you?)
How can you forget? Growing up in Australia, every computer I’ve ever owned has defaulted to “US Letter” as the paper size. (Even when your computer was set to use Australian localisations.) If you didn’t change the setting, you couldn’t print. The printer would complain that it was out of paper, because it didn’t have a tray with the requested us letter paper in it. It was one of those things you always had to check.
I don’t think I saw a “us letter” sized piece of paper until I was an adult.
Must be an Anglosphere thing. Every non-English computer and office software I've ever used correctly defaulted to A4.
Na, was normal in the UK to have A4 too
PC LOAD LETTER
Trail paper was letter format in europe.
That's funny because (living in the US) I've noticed that many printers default to A4. Maybe 20 years ago, one printer at work would think A4 paper was loaded in it after every power-failure and we'd have to go through the menu and change it, or it would require you to clear a warning before it would print anything sized for US letter.
Every windows install I've ever done (in Australia) I picked "English (Australia)" when possible, and "English (UK)" before Microsoft provided that localisation option. I've never seen US letter as a default.
We (normal citizens, businesses, government) mostly use “Letter” size https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_(paper_size) which is slightly shorter than A4
Apparently the reagan admin is responsible for making this our official government document size, and no one knows exactly why this size was chosen.
Like most of your standards. No-one knows why, but it's obviously advantageous to defend it religiously as "better than everyone else"
> it's obviously advantageous to defend it religiously as "better than everyone else
Or laugh at ourselves about it, which is what we normally do.
I don't know in terms of saved paper because the printer has somehow switched to Letter again I think an argument could be made...
Here here! I will walk 500 km for this.
It was just chosen earlier.
I'm sorry our paper size offends you. Had we have known it would cause such an inferiority complex we never would have done it.
That Wikipedia article was lacking citations so I dug some up with ChatGPT: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-CPUB-101spub9/pdf/GP...
On page 52 (57 of the PDF), there’s a letter dated December 18th 1978 (Carter administration, not Reagan) from the Congressional Joint Committee on Printing adopting 8.5”x11”, effective January 1st 1980 so departments & agencies could use up their 8.5”x10.5” stock.
I also found this article from Time from January 15th 1979 that this was actually slightly cheaper despite using more paper: https://content.time.com/time/subscriber/article/0%2C33009%2...
The government adopted 8.5”x10.5” to save money back in 1921 vs what was already the industry standard of 8.5”x11”, but this ended up backfiring and a General Services Administration report in 1972 recommended switching to 8.5”x11” would reduce by 5% the amount of times a secretary would need a second page. The Joint Committee of Printing estimated this change would save several million dollars.
> On hearing the news, one straight-faced bureaucrat in the Government Printing Office said of his colleagues' reaction to the news: "Some people think that this issue has been inadequately studied."
Apparently the American Forest & Paper Association is under the impression that it was the Reagan administration’s proclamation:
> Oddly enough, the United States used two different sizes - the 8" x 10.5" and the 8.5" x 11". Separate committees came up with separate standards, the 8" x 10.5" for the government and the 8.5" x 11" for the rest of us. Once these committees found out about each other a couple years later, they agreed to disagree until the early 1980's when Reagan finally proclaimed that the 8.5" x 11" was the official standard sized paper.
https://web.archive.org/web/20120220192919/http://www.afandp...
I should have shared this YouTube short:
“The most beautiful invention of all time”
Like as a standard? No. But I can go to a stationery shop and buy an A4 notebook.
No, "letter" is the standard
Or "legal".
And for writing a letter, ed is the standard editor.
But it's not really the same aspect ratio, is it?
Because one is used predominantly vertically, and the other horizontally.
As long as there's this landscape vs portrait difference, how does the aspect ratio similarity actually help?
If you unfold and have two apps side-by-side, then the aspect ratio (and seemingly size?) is the same as having one app, closed. Seems nice to have.
That doesn't require a special aspect ratio.
I mean that's true for side-by-side foldables in general isn't it? It doesn't require what Apple is saying about the aspect ratio here.
I want to be able to open the phone and get the original closed-state image, but stretched to fit the new total hardware viewport size.
You mean unlike all of the marketing photos?
Yes, that's what I mean. I didn't see the desired mode in any of the marketing materials. This mode would be an effective 1.4x full-screen scaling. To be more specific: if the OS desktop has XxY virtual pixels in closed mode, if the user opens it and rotates 90 degrees, the desktop still has XxY virtual pixels. No new usable real estate. Everything previously seen just gets a bit bigger. I don't expect it to be the desired default for most people, but I have middle-aged eyes.
I really assumed the point of this was going to be to complain about how no phone/phone cases are exactly the same... which is an absolute scourge on society that I assume is continued by Apple here.
People mythologising Apple design will never get old
Too wide to fit in anyone's pocket, but the ratio is the sine of 45 degrees! Seems like a very non-Apple thing to do, honestly. My jeans don't care about math.
It’s the size of a passport, which does fit in most pockets.
Take a sheet of A4 paper. Fold it in half. Fold it in half again. That’s about the size of the Duo inner screen (a little larger actually, A6 is about 13% smaller than the Duo screen).
That's not far off the 4:3 of the Samsung Z fold 8. Around 4.24:3.
There are compromises to any proportion decision. A tall rectangle is much more natural to hold than a fat rectangle, especially at the size of this device. The user also has to relearn the location of on screen buttons that have always had a consistent location.
Surely the next version will unfold twice to reach A3 size
You mean all two states?
sounds useless and ridiculous
But what's the point?
With a ratio of 1:√2, you can cut the sheet in half parallel to its shorter side, and each half keeps the same proportions.
I think the parent comment meant: "What's the point with respect to a phone's screen". As far as I can tell this is irrelevant for a technical screen size and app ratios? As far as I can tell the toothpaste is already out of the tube when it comes to reducing the aspect ratio testing burden for developers but maybe I'm just way too far away from the mobile development space to be aware of the pain points this is solving.
It's to make commercial use of paper mind-numbingly easy in terms of calculation and avoiding waste.
Aspect ratios are very important for UI design.
But why paper's ratio is important?
He is explaining that if you design an app that displays as desired on the outer display (in portrait mode). Then if you display that app to the inner display (also in portrait mode), it will show up exactly the same, just with everything twice as large.
This obviously makes life easier for both users and developers.
It's mathematically the only aspect ratio where this holds and thus you can resize in half and nothing has to move around.
One reason is making it easy to scale things up or down for printing on standard sizes of paper.
Moreover, app developers for iOS have to support fewer aspect ratios than developers of Android apps. In theory, this allows for more attention to be given to the UI design for each aspect ratio - rather than having to use a spring-style stretch layout.
If I were to guess, this does look like a new ratio to support, but at least it's just 1 instead of 2.
I would imagine this helps a lot having two screens side by side. You can remote into another phone and help a user like an old relative accomplish something. Or run a virtual machine or AI control panel
There is no doubt this is why Apple did this.
I often make the argument about whether metric is "better" being split by "is it better on paper" vs "is it better in day to day life" - and most metric stuff breaks down in the latter, meaning, the non metric systems seem to be perfectly fine in day to day life, but almost always better on paper.
Like Celsius - sounds great on paper, not any better (and in some ways, worse) in day to day weather/temperature.
One of the few exceptions I find is metric paper sizes. It's such a beautiful way of designing the sizes that is not only perfect on paper (pun proudly intended), is also totally practical in real life.
> "is it better in day to day life"
Speak to a carpenter or construction worker from any country with the metric system. Measure anything by simple powers of ten and simple decimal shifts makes life so much easier. Quick, what is half of a yard-length beam less 12 1/16"?
My head did 36" divided by 2, so 18", minus 12 1/16", so 5 and 15/16". That is harder than working with quarters or fifths of meters, but easier than thirds or sixths of meters.
I don't know which is better. Considering how nothing stops you from doing decimal inches or fractional meters, but people rarely do that, both ways seem fine.
Not sure how Celsius is worse? Its unit is the same of Kelvin, just shifted by 273. 0C is freezing, 100C is boiling. Some people say Fahrenheit is more representative of how people feel, but that is very subjective and biased towards the West and Northern hemisphere.
Yep, highest outdoor temperature ever recorded was in the US. Even if you live in Death Valley, F makes more sense than C.
FYI, none of this has ever made any sense at all to somebody who didn’t grow up with Fahrenheit. Numbers don’t need to go roughly between 40 and 100, and then occasionally 212 and 450.
The difference between 20 C and 20.5 C is not generally noticeable. The difference between 20 and 25 really is.
You’ll just have to face the fact that you feel comfortable with a really weird system that nobody else can see the point of, but it’s what you’re comfortable with. That’s OK, you’re allowed.
They also accidentally got MPH right for cars. Fastest highway is like 85. 100 is the fastest a normal car can go and also a reasonable point to arrest the driver.
> The sum total of "comfortable" temperatures in celsius has to be squeezed between maybe 17 to 24
30° is perfectly comfortable for me.
> Its unit is the same of Kelvin, just shifted by 273
You mean shifted by 273.15 because Kelvin doesn't have tidy fixed points at the freezing and boiling point of water, unlike Celsius and Fahrenheit.
Celsius and Fahrenheit are both utilitarian systems. Kelvin is the scientific system. Arguments about the relative utility of C° and F° are subjective and neither is particularly optimal for science.
"Just shifted by 273"
To be clear, I don't have strong feelings. Obviously in a lot of science/engineering fields we use Celsius degrees a lot. But we also us Kelvin absolute scale a lot which would be ridiculous for day-to-day usage.
I am used to Fahrenheit but it is also a finer scale and a nice round number for boiling is largely irrelevant for the vast majority of purposes. Yes, knowing the freezing point of water can be important but memorizing one simple number probably isn't a huge stretch especially that the reality differs based on a number of factors. Arguably, knowing that 0 degrees F means fricking cold is sort of a higher latitudes bias but I'm not sure the degree to which Celsius simplifies.
I have a kitchen thermometer for making caramel (can't remember exact number but ballpark is 200C). I occasionally use my oven at 250C. My wife fires her ceramics in a kiln at around 1000C. I don't feel like I'm "wasting" anything here.
> Celsius isn't granular enough.
This argument would be reasonable if we didn't have to cut inches into 16 or 32 parts to approach decent granularity. At least we use decimal for cutting Celsius up...
As an American, I find Fahrenheit much better for ambient temperature and body temperature, but I hate seeing it for things like melting points of materials and the like. I'm always thrown off by statements like 800-degree pizza ovens, because once you get above 500°F it is out of the realm of everyday measurements, and I have trouble mentally separating the values for metals melting in °C and "gee whiz" temperatures in °F.
All scientific and engineering use should probably eschew the customary measurements, even in the news. For example, in aviation, they use °C now unless your airplane is very old. Unfortunately, in the US we still use inches of mercury for pressure, both knots and MPH but never km/h or m/s, etc.
Only Americans feel this way about Celsius. The only downside is that Celsius requires 3 digit precision to really accurately characterize what temperature a room feels. I would be willing to bet humans are woefully inadequate at knowing the temperature of the room they are in anyways
I dunno I’m in a room and guessed that the temperature was 72°F and sure enough it’s 72° in here.
I put more details here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49635310
I do concede the overwhelming majority of people that argue that one is better than the other (both ways) are basically just arguing "the thing I grew up with is better" - because when you probe further, there isn't really any supporting argument, just "I understand this system better because I grew up with it" but it's equally vacuous coming from people who grew up with Celsius.
I came to the US when I was 12, so I grew up with Celsius but didn't pay attention to the weather as a young child. But still, I've lived in both systems.
Celsius is not really related to the metric system. It's just a temperature scale the entire world (minus the US) agreed to use.
The only connection off the top of my head is that mL of water increases by 1˚C if heated with 1 calorie. Which is annoying because 1 Calorie is 1000 calories.
Why do you think Celsius is worse in day to day life?
I find F way more intuitive for weather. The larger scale helps. 100 is hot. 0 is quite cold. Boiling point is irrelevant. 32 freezing is the only thing that feels arbitrary.
It's literally does not matter in day to day life. In the end you get to X degrees is cold, Y degrees is perfect and Z degrees is hot regardless of C or F.
I grew up using C and now I'm using F, if I move to a country that uses C, I will switch again. Its meaningless.
What are you talking about? The same can be said about 59F (15°C) and 60F (15.56°C)
"One fahrenheit increment doesn't feel like anything"
At least Celsius are grounded in reality, should I be worried about ice? Just check if temperature is below 0°C. But hey you may need to check if your solution of water, ice and ammonium chloride is frozen, so I just need to check if below 0F. That's probably something you do often right?
I can sense 0.5C changes when I set my AC at home.
1990s LCD HVAC thermostats that didn’t go down to half degrees had better precision when set to °F vs °C.
i assume most of it is a joke?
> It is more precise. Fahrenheit has more frequent degrees, allowing for greater resolution with analog thermometers.
this is really about the graduation and size of the thermometer? you can print a useful line pitch as you like, and have it represent what you want, where thats a 0.25C, 3F, 10c or whathaveyou.
everyday temperatures are pretty well centered around 0C, half the year above, the other half below, and the 10, 20, 30, and 40 increments feel quite similar to each other in severity of the season. +30 is damn hot and -30 is damn cold. +/-10 is all mildly warm or cold, with +/-20 really being where you do seasonal acitivites like swimming or skiing.
as far as western units go, C fits fantastically for the the traditional western culture with 4 idealized seasons. I could see F being better for places outside the idealized west - eg. the american south/sun belt, the PNW, southeast asia, south america, a lot of africa, etc where the seasons are different
I like how the comments are like "um acxshaully as a Canadian [citation needed] [you forgot </s>](xkcd/234234)"
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I mean, I wouldn't hate it if they got into cars
I'm very glad those Apple Car rumors didn't materialize
An Apple Miata is the dream. Take the design team from the MX-5 NA days and marry it to Apple's design team. Both are exemplar in engineering and the result has me drooling as I day dream here.
Apple design is the polar opposite of the MX-5. The MX-5 is a masterpiece of mechanical design and function. Apple makes minimalist purely electronic fashion gadgets that are highly form over function and remove user agency.
What does it mean to not be good at being a car?
It’s a terrific car if you want a great handling convertible at a low price point. As you said, it’s fun.
It’s not good at moving a lot of people or things, or going really fast, or lasting for 500k miles, or being as cheap as possible. Other cars are good at some of those things, but what is the Miata missing that is otherwise required to be a ‘good’ car?
Stickshift option instantly gone, with a recall to swap existing manuals to automatic
There's already Ferrari Luce
I imagine it would be held together with glue and tiny screws.
And it'd be a nonstandard charger
This has worked fine for Lotus products such as the Elise
Steve Jobs is folding in his grave.
This man has been dead for nearly 15 years, just let him be. It's time to move on.
This. He would have never approved a foldable phone, the iPhone Air, or the Vision Pro. Apple is back to throwing shit at the wall like they were in the 90s. Directionless. Visionless.
I could definitely imagine him loving the Air. But I don’t think he’d segment the market; he’d probably get rid of the normal iPhone
I really don’t know how you can say he wouldn’t do this things.
The Air particularly - the thinnest, lightest feeling, nicest to hold iPhone ever made, I think that might have been his favorite.
The Vision Pro is clearly an interesting category of device, Apple needs to be in, if it would have seen the light of day under Steve Jobs is unknowable.
He was ruthless at Apple because back then he had to be - now they can run Vision Pro and it not impact their ability run the business, if Apple had A product that did not succeed in the 90s it might have sank them.
The nicest to hold iPhone ever made was iPhone 5. I'm sure it was his favorite.
The iPhone 5 size was designed for people who use smartphones a healthy amount, ie not very much, usually in pocket and often one-handed for a small task. At some point, that was no longer how smartphones were most often used.
I kept my 5S as long as possible, until my carrier wouldn't even provide cell service to it.
The first time I held an iPhone 5, I thought it was a demo device. It was too light to actually be the real device. That was such a great phone.
And it sat perfectly flat and didn't wobble when you set it down... ¯\_(ツ)_/
90s Apple also coasted on the tailwinds of what Jobs accomplished in the 80s. Same with today. Jobs set things up in the 00s and now Apple is coasting again.
Jobs had products getting people out of their seats and applauding. New products, new industries. As opposed to now where Apple is following the herd and not leading it.
It feels aimless, and Vision Pro ironically is the best representation of Apple's complete lack of vision.
Nothing wrong with the Vision Pro it’s just a little bit before it’s time functionally it needs to be at least three or four times faster and the battery life needs to be as good as the flagship iPhone and it needs to be half of the weight and half the price.
The iPhone Air completely failed though in terms of sales/popularity.
Apple these days has completely lost touch with what people actually want.
The iPhone Air is my favorite phone I've ever had, and if they only made them, I'd be ok with it. (Sample size: 1, but still people)
Apple threw plenty of shit at the wall when Jobs ran the ship. The hockey puck mouse and the Mac Cube was under Jobs. The first Apple TV. That was pretty much what the Vision Pro is: a side project to test the waters and get some experience with a new format. It’s just that the Vision Pro by its nature is a much more expensive and ambitious side project.
All the three product you mentioned is exactly the kind of things Steve Jobs did. Don’t make him into this mythological flawless visionary.
Tim Cook:
[Jobs’] advice to me was ‘Never ask what I would do, just do the right thing,’
He had watched Disney go through this paralysis of sitting around and talking about what Walt [Disney] would do. And he did not want that for Apple.
Exactly what Tim Cook would say. loljk
Wow, that quote should've been pinned at the top of MacRumors since 2010.
You can bash the Air all you want, but it's the iPhone I love the most by far, and I had many iPhones since the 3G. It's such a pleasant phone to hold and the screen size is lovely.
If they release a second version with a ultrawide and maybe tele camera, it would be perfect.
He launched the macbook air. Iphone air seems right up his alley.
i dont think it is.
well, the product itself yes, but it would be the iphone, not the iphone air
now that the duo is out, the air seems like a tech demo they needed to validate sold to the public
As an iPhone Air owner here’s my honest take: Build quality, screen, and performance are all fantastic. No compromises there.
Compromises are battery, no additional camera lenses. Single speaker. Some niche USB limits.
Battery life is fine overall but on days of heavy use/travel it’s noticeable. Single camera lens is ok but I do miss the telephoto on occasion. Single speaker gets made fun of online, but for any serious listening you’re going to use headphones anyway.
Charge speed via USB is lower than the pros and you can’t do video-out over USB.
I have an iPhone Air and the ONLY issue I've had is accidentally tapping the screen since the screen is so close to the edge of the device. Not battery life, not the speaker, not the single camera. I've only ever had issues with accidental tapping.
Some people seem to get offended if companies make products with different tradeoffs* than they would make.
*Thinner which means less battery.
I’m having your post read out loud and am listening with my Apple Hifi.
Genuinely bonkers. I never thought they’d do this. Just seems so like a Xiaomi Xi7 Super Max Fold Z or something. But I have to say that when I used one of those Android folding phones it was quite cool to end up with a big screen in your pocket.
Just didn’t feel it was an Appleish product.
I hope the tri—fold format catches on (Huawei mate xt 1&2, Samsung z trifold).
If I’m going to carry around an insanely fragile and expensive device I want to maximise screen area and aspect ratio.
The good news is Apple made a more practical dual-screen device than most previous attempts. The “big square” UI was awkward for both reading and video. Apple not only made it rectangular but kept it in the magic aspect ratio that’s able to be shared by single and dual screens.
I had written off dual screen when the square layouts were the norm, but I think Apple has struck a good balance here between screen size and price+chunkiness+serviceability. I won’t be holding my breath for an iPhone Trio. (Not to be confused with Palm Treo.)
It's priced identical to the Samsung Fold 8.
The dimensions are also close.
From a visual aesthetics perspective, I prefer the square edges of the Samsung Fold 8.
Eager to check out the reviews of the software capabilities of the iPhone Duo.
And I'm not sure about the inner screen's selfie camera. The under-screen camera has failed in previous devices, especially for zoom calls, it was abysmal.
Excited for the nano texture displays though. For far too long, Samsung had beaten Apple with non-reflective displays.
I trust Apple likely did better, though they’ve made bad decisions before (Studio Display camera).
My biggest worry is the lack of Face ID. I love Face ID so much. I know I can do the Apple Watch unlock, but I don’t want to. I just want my phone to immediately look unlocked to me. and Face ID did that the vast majority of the time.
So I’m very curious to hear what the hands-on impressions from people are. Is the screen good? Can you notice or feel the crease? Is there anything else wrong? Is not having Face ID as annoying as I suspect?
At least there’s something really interesting this year. It’s more than just faster and better cameras, which is nice. And having actual aperture blades on the pro is great.
But this is more interesting.
I'm okay with the lack of face ID. Fingerprint unlock power button works perfectly well for me.
Did they mention MagSafe?
I'm not sure if they mentioned MagSafe for the iPhone Duo.
That could be a deal breaker.
It does have MagSafe support. https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/
I hadn’t even thought about that. I don’t think I could do a phone without MagSafe again.
FWIW (and this is not directed to you specifically but anyone reading this) the police can use biometrics to compel you to open your phone without a warrant, but they cannot force you to give up your passcode.
https://www.zdnet.com/article/biometrics-vs-passcodes-what-l...
This is partly why iPhones have a feature to disable biometric unlock by holding the lock + volume button (same gesture as emergency mode).
Doesn't fingerprint mean that someone could knock you unconscious and unlock it with your finger? I don't know if I'd install my bank apps here.
Im not normally around people willing to do violence to get my phone,
That's possible, but unlock doesn't work after death.
TBF they never should have removed touch id. It's bonkers that we can't have both with phones that expensive.
> It's priced identical to the Samsung Fold 8.
Not around here it isn't. The iPhone Duo starts at $2999 for the base storage. The Fold 8 is $2399 and even the Fold 8 Ultra is $2699. This only confirms that Apple has been steadily pricing themselves outside what I'm willing to spend. Can I afford it? Yes. Will I get $3k of value from it? No. This one is not for me at this price.
Just want to check, do you mean American pricing? It starts at $1999 not $2999, which is surprisingly competitive with the Fold 8. (Of course, Samsung discounts the shit of the Fold in ways Apple never does).
I'm in Canada and those are the prices I saw when I looked at the Apple and Best Buy websites this afternoon. Apple seems to enjoy charging a premium up here.
Is an inner screen camera really worth it? There's already a camera cutout on the outer screen, plus you can open the phone and use the full-size camera with the outer screen, which results in much more flattering imagery than the wide-angle lenses selfie cameras use. It's like taking the difference between an under-screen selfie camera and a regular selfie camera, and applying that again.
It makes sense to have one screen for an as-large-as-possible uninterrupted display, and another for maximum utility.
I like that Samsung doesn't cut as much corner off as Apple, but ideally I'd like to find a manufacturer that doesn't cut corners at all. Even though I'm not likely to buy another iPhone product, I am excited that Apple doesn't cut holes in their interior display, because that'll probably get other manufacturers to do the same.
I suspect there are plenty of people out there who habitually buy the most expensive of what Apple has to offer in any category. I guess Apple was leaving money on the table by not having anything in this price range in the first place.
> It's priced identical to the Samsung Fold 8.
The Fold8 is $1,899.99 (street price significantly lower as usual), the Duo is $1999.
That may be right, I was referring to list price, which is identical between Apple and Samsung. (I'm located in EU)
With Samsung, they're going to heavily discount it over the holiday season.
With Apple, the device is actually going to retain its value in the second hand market.
So there's this value argument that can swing both ways.
The list price is different in the US. Apple may be trading off lower margins in the EU to keep it below the psychological 2000 mark.
The under-screen camera essentially doesn't matter. For the three times you're in a meeting with it, it'll hold. For everything else, you'll use the primary camera and the front screen.
Yeah, but I'm not really sure.
There's a perfectly good use case of using this device unfolded with their kickstand powered folio case and a portable keyboard — While getting some zoom calls and productivity / work done.
Lots of people use facetime for personal calls rather than zoom meetings.
Or tiktok dances
Apple usually gets heat for not being the first to a feature, even when they’re the first with an implementation that’s actually good, not just a gimmick
I've had two folding phones and I am not going back until the issues are resolved. Here were my problems:
1. After a while, I think dust would inevitably get in the hinges and wouldn't fold flat. I've seen demos in stores of newer gen Samsung foldable phones and it looks like those wouldn't fold flat
2. The inner screen protector eventually lifted off the screen, causing catastrophic damage, and requiring repair (under warranty thankfully)
3. The aspect ratios were weird. I ended up using native app sizes, making the extra space kind of a waste
One thing I did like about the Samsung foldables was that when they were folded and using the front screen, I finally had a phone that fit my smaller hands! It was nice being able to use my thumb to reach the other side of the screen. Will be interesting to see how this works out because it looks decidedly wider.
> After a while, I think dust would inevitably get in the hinges and wouldn't fold flat. I've seen demos in stores of newer gen Samsung foldable phones and it looks like those wouldn't fold flat
For your first point, the iPhone duo is rated IP 68 Dust and Water protection. Literally none of Samsung's book foldables so far have achieved this IP rating.
The Pixel Fold 10 (and 11) is IP68 rated
I trust Apple to do better here; for example, after about ten years, no one has caught up to Face ID yet.
I get the form factor difference but Windows Hello (which actually works extremely well, probably due to its incubation with Xbox) came out two years before FaceID.
Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
I don't mind folding. I think it's cool, and a nice way to get a useful space. But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands. This is even wider before unfolding.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
Because for a lot (most?) people their iPhone is their primary and only personal computer. I also want a smaller phone. I bet Apple designers would love to sell you a smaller phone. They've certainly tried with my beloved and retired iPhone mini and the same size but thinner iPhone air. But the market keeps rejecting it because it's not just a portable companion to some other computer, it is the computer. If you're doing all your work on it then you need more real estate. Aging populations across the globe probably need more screen real estate also for bigger text.
My need for this new iPhone is driven by my declining vision. Twenty years ago, I had no problem with my first iPhone. Five years ago, I started to get acquainted with some of the visual accommodation measures in iOS. I do still use my (physically larger than I would like) iPhone 16 Pro Max, which I bought for the biggest screen. I'd love to do my stuff on my laptop or desktop, but smartphones are de facto The Computer these days. So I'll probably buy an iPhone Duo after I sell a kidney for financing. All that said, today's Apple presentation left me gobsmacked at the technology they've developed. I was born before civilian jet transports were in service, with all that implies for a long personal view of tech dev. The tech feels to me like a cut&paste from 2076.
And why should we all have to buy big ass phones because your vision is declining? Nobody argued big phones shouldn't exist, it's just small phones currently don't.
They confused "smaller" with "budget" though, if the good camera was available in the smaller size I would have bought it.
> They confused "smaller" with "budget" though
Apple is in the luxury business.
I miss the time when smaller was considered more advanced
Camera blocks take internal volume. Smaller phones have less internal volume to spend - while still having to pack all the non-negotiables like the modem and the SoC into it. Something's got to give. And no one want that something to be the battery life going down to 6 hours.
Volume constraints are bad enough for "normal" models. "Minis" have it way worse.
The iPhone Air's SOC demonstrates that they could compact the actual SOC portion substantially. Add a bit of thickness back for the battery, and they could have a Mini with space for a decent camera and decent battery life. Remove the camera bump by making it a uniform thickness and the battery life would be fine.
Reading this on my 6s, and it’s still great.
Same, I look longingly at the Samsung Flip and I'd buy one in a heartbeat if only it had the camera system from the Ultra. I'll even pay the Ultra price+extra for the foldable function.
But right now it's in a space where you're paying extra for the fact that it's a foldable, but it feels....budget in its specs? Like...how does that work?
The iPhone Air is nearly 20% larger than the mini
As my eyesight is getting worse I do end up appreciating bigger phones. Even though I miss how smaller phones felt in my hand, it's just hard to see small text on it and that's even though I don't use my phone all that much since I have a kindle for reading and a computer for everything else.
I'm honestly curious about the "market keeps rejecting it" part. Yes, they sold far fewer units than the other models....but did they really not make money? I have made variations on this comment many many times. I completely buy that the opinions about phone form factor and features expressed on HN/reddit/online, and my own idiosyncratic preferences probably even more so, represent somewhat of a niche, and that your median phone consumer isn't interested in what we/I want. But the phone market seems like it's so large that it should be able to support a lot of niches! A tenth of a percent of the total market (~1,300 million in 2023 according to [0], 0.1% of which would be 1.3 million phones) should be totally viable as a business! I get that, maybe for Apple there is opportunity cost. Having more product lines adds overhead, and if the profit margin on those extra product lines isn't enough higher than the main lines to justify that overhead, they kill it. But why doesn't some smaller company (so yes, this mostly applies to Android) try to steal that fractional market share? I simply don't understand why it doesn't work to the point that now, when the market is so much larger than it was in the past, we have so much less hardware diversity.
[0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/263437/global-smartphone...
> should be able to support a lot of niches
Apple's whole thing is that they don't do niches. Support a select few versions of select few products very very well is the whole MO
Curious decision to make a phone for the 2% of foldable users, then.
> Why does the Vision Pro exist then?
They are thinking that VR headsets will not be niche products in the future
The apple watch was very niche when it came out as well, but their intention was absolutely to make a major product line
They are beachhead products, aren't they? Plant your flag in case it gets big.
Phones got big.
The Vision Pro was meant for early adopters of a new mainstream thing. (Yes, I also thought this would fail.)
The Mac Mini is an entry level product I see quite lot of people pick up. How is it niche?
The Vision Pro (and the folding iPhone Duo) involve developing a lot of underlying technologies that will be useful in currently popular or potential future product lines, even if the market they serve themselves is niche.
> but did they really not make money?
I'm sure they made money. But that's not the right question to ask, in my opinion. The right question is did they make as much or more than their internal rate of return (IRR)? Perhaps the smaller iPhones (I had one) do not so they cut the product line. Or maybe they over-purchased some components and figured they could make a phone or two out of them.
Like many other HNers, I don't quite understand the appeal of not having their own computer, or even a VPS setup they can remote info for more structured work. But then I remember the famous Dropbox comment where one user had qualms, and perhaps looking outside our bubble can be worth it.
I'm in the market for one of those foldy phones.
My use case is that I have terminals on various servers that I'd like to access when I'm travelling, and I'm often just doing short trips without my laptop. It's often inconvenient to schlep a bag with me just so I can use it on the train, so it's nice to be able to bring a phone that has enough screen for the terminal to not be tiny.
Apparently a lot of people don't even own a proper computer nowadays, be it a PC or a laptop, it's all just phones/tablets. In fact I know a university professor teaching CS and he told me that obviously not everyone, but a growing population of students starts the CS course without knowing how to use a mouse. They all have laptops, they know how to use a keyboard and a touchpad, but unless they are gamers they probably have never used a mouse.
I taught a basic html course for elementary kids 5 years ago.
The first thing I had to teach was files folders and desktops. For many of them, Chrome was synonymous with computer.
I didn’t expect anyone to know DOS like I did at that age, but was a little shocked that “Save your file to the desktop” was gibberish to them
If you went back in time to 2006 and showed a cellular Apple Watch and an iPhone (with no apps for either) side by side I think a lot of people would assume the former would be the ubiquitous consumer product and the latter would be a niche product for wealthy executives.
The cellular Apple Watch would be a great cell phone if all you want is to use your phone as a phone + iPod. But it’s hamstrung by its software and being forced to be anchored to an iPhone to be activated just makes it unsuitable as a primary device. We’d probably all be healthier as a society if we didn’t have the black rectangle of doom in our pockets all the time.
I’d love a cellular Apple Watch that’s elongated enough to have a headphone jack (lol) and all day battery life. It’d be fine even if it was meant to stay in my pocket instead of on the wrist.
I really don't think this is just for people who don't have personal computers. I do think this is for people who don't want to carry additional separate devices with them in order to access the bigger-screen experiences. There are a couple gimmicks based on the fold as well.
I for one would love to have my phone turn into a tablet while I'm charging my car. Saves me from having to bring the iPad separately, which can't fit in my pocket. Would eliminate a step from that routine.
Also would love to always have that capability on me in the case where I couldn't have foreseen a need for the bigger screen. Being randomly out with friends and able to spontaneously just show them something in a way they can actually see would be nice.
And why does it need to be wider when folded for that? The competition showed that a narrow folding phone works quite well if you want to have access to a bigger screen without a different device
Thanks, I will check
Apple Watch with cellular is effectively iPhone mini. There are 3d printable cases to make it into a bar phone.
https://makerworld.com/en/models/1022751-watch-phone#profile...
The Apple Watches have also been getting bigger.
The first Apple Watches came in 38mm and 42mm sizes. That "large" Apple Watch is the size of the current "small" Apple Watch (42mm).
Mostly by shrinking the bezels tho
The 42mm refers to the case size. You are right that screen is bigger on the new models with the same case size.
> The Apple Watches have also been getting bigger.
A large watch face has always been a style people into watches go for. It's not just a digital smartwatch trend.
And the sky is blue. Your comment does not dispute the fact that larger watch faces is a style people like. Because you don't does not invalidate others do
The 42mm measurement on an Apple watch is the lug-to-lug size, which usually corresponds to about 37mm in standard watch size.
This was a style thing that tended to ebb and flow. The trend in the 2000s was to have really big watch faces but by the 2010s people were calling them “dinner plates” and it started to be viewed as kind of tacky and ostentatious. Smart watches ended up recalibrating people’s expectations but, if they hadn’t shaken things up, I think we’d be leaning towards smaller faces by now.
In fact, fashionable youths these days are wearing those vintage Casios which come in at 35mm to 39mm.
There are a lot of aluminum cases that transform the watch into an ipod, and some of them are advertised to be used as a phone as well.
Aside from the fact that it doesn't run iOS and like every other aspect of it?
To go on a different tangent, I want a round Apple Watch. I know it's not the most efficient use of space, but dangit I don't want the weird little (but constantly-growing) square! If I have to have something on my wrist all day, I want it to look nice and not like a brick.
Try Garmin if you want a round smart watch. They get good reviews and the sporty types who own them swear by them.
Can’t imagine Apple ever doing this, though, because a round display is pretty terrible for displaying the sort of content and UI elements that iPhone/Apple Watch users are used to. Much of the UI and all existing apps would need to be completely redesigned.
Yeah I fully admit I'm yelling at clouds here. I have looked at Garmin and they're likely to be be what I eventually settle on. I have my own issues with their design philosophy, or more particularly, the design philosophy of their operating systems and back-end UX, but they're a far sight better aesthetically to these eyes. The watches by "nothing" are also pleasing to the eye but don't seem to be really be good at doing what i want (responsive heart rate monitoring, sport features).
Crazy idea: Just get a regular round watch :-P
Even better idea: Get a Casio FX-91 [1]. You'll get used to its shape pretty quick - like the 100 Million other humans who already have. Good chance it will still be produced 30 years from now, too, so if you lose it or break it you can get a new one. Costs a tenth of an Apple watch.
Ha, she's a beaut. I actually had one way back in the day. Still remember that cute little beep for the alarm/adjustments.
I'd like to see anyone try to use this for, like, anything at all. A video of someone posting a HN comment on this thing would absolutely make my day.
Yeah, nah, this isn't anywhere near an iPhone mini in usability. I can appreciate it as a design exercise, but as an actual daily driver? Hell no
unfortunately for me at least the handwriting recognition still seems to be at the "Eat Up, Martha" phase https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlG_uEd1we0
One day the stockpiles of iPhone 13 minis will deplete to the point where making new products in that form factor is economically viable.
Until then, off to eBay we go. There are more than enough sitting around completely unused. You aren't missing out on much with 5 iPhone generations these days.
Yep I'm keeping my 12 mini until it fails. It's absolutely the biggest phone I would ever want. I'd prefer one a bit smaller, actually, as I still cannot reach all points on the screen one-handed, at least not without changing my grip which risks dropping it.
I switched off my 13 Mini this year to go to a Pixel 10 for the better Pebble support. I still miss it, it really was the last perfectly-sized phone.
Main issue would be impending lack of iOS updates, together with increased risk of zero-days due to AI.
Love my 13 mini. Wish they'd 86 the SE and add USB-C to the mini instead.
Intrigued by the Duo though
I’ll do the upgrade to 13 Mini from my 2020 SE once it breaks
You'll have to take my 13 mini off of my cold, dead, hands.
Also clinging on to my 12 mini in spite of decreasing battery capacity.
If there was a 15+ mini, I would’ve upgraded a long time ago.
The 13 mini was a big battery upgrade (as someone who upgraded YoY at the time).
So if you scored a 13 mini and a fresh battery you’d probably be overjoyed from that alone
I was a mini holdout forever but now it’s hard to imagine giving up the Air’s display
Indeed! I bought a 13 mini off ebay about 18 months ago I think. Great phone but battery is poor... can't last a full day even as I don't use video. Sigh, great size.
I really deeply wish they had attempted a profile that was 64mm wide folded and double unfolded. Height is less important.
The whole advantage of having any screen at all when folded is something quick to access and *one handable*. Just looking at the Duo, it appears too wide for that by a large amount.
If I’m forced to two hand the thing I’ll just get a phablet: no folding mechanism, no unfolding step before using properly, no gigantic price hike (guessing).
Are you left handed? The rearranging of the UI to provide navigation on the right side of the 5.4” screen seems like it was made for this exact purpose.
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Because the common user for some strange reason has come to prefer phablets to mobile phones.
I gather that for many people, their smartphone is their only computing device. Doesn't have much appeal for me, but if that was the case, I could see that nudging people towards bigger devices, even if it makes them less practical as phones you carry around / try to grasp with one hand.
A lot of people who are "mobile-only" prefer larger phones.
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
>A lot of people who are "mobile-only" prefer larger phones.
And a lot of people who are not prefer smaller ones.
>I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone. So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have.
Not in the slightest. I've got a Galaxy A52, a large-ish phone for its time, and I can use it quite easily with one hand. I can't readily think of the small-hands equivalent of Shaq to compose a snarky "it's you" retort, and I'm sure it's not just you, but plenty people around you, with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
To do what? I usually hold it with my left and, and one-finger (right-hand index finger) to type / scroll / select / etc. I guess I never "got" the phone model properly or something. My daughters type way faster on their phones, I can't do thumb typing (how do you hit those letters?!?), plus my thumbs get too sore too fast (decades on the edge of carpal tunnel) and/or cramp up.
I was timed at 140+ wpm in high school and online tests / etc have hit close to 200 wpm on a Qwerty. So I CAN touch-type and do it well - and keyboard + mouse is my goto jam. My favorite phone (alas, discontinued way too soon) was the Photon Q (work gave us phones way back) with slide-out physical keyboard.
I "use" an S21, but even just entering my 4-digit pin is awkward with my left thumb - is there some other way to hold it? I can't even imagine trying it with my right.. My thumbs just cramp up..
Mobile-only is a larger segment and growing. "ipad kids" are at the age where they are "iphone teens". And it's also the segment of people who care most about phones.
Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
Tech people are like car people in that they don't really appreciate that their preferences are niche. Wanting a smaller phone is akin to wanting a smaller car
> with relatively normal hands, can use their phone with one hand.
According to the US Army, the average length of the male thumb: 2.75 in; for women it's 2.49. So we can assume the actual population averages are probably a bit lower.
That means the average iphone is larger than the average male thumb, by a reasonable amount, and it has been for quite a number of generations.
Personally, my thumb is as wide as my iphone, but practically, the way I have to hold it one-handed means that I can only reach half of the screen (technically, the bottom quadrant, so 25% of the overall screen area). I'd need another 1" or so to reach the entire width of the screen with a single hand, and idk 2"+ to navigate the entire screen one handed.
The disconnect probably comes from what it means to "use" a phone one-handed. I mean to be able to hold it in one hand and touch anywhere on the screen and perform any action. Which limits phone size to around 2.25"x4.50", or so to account for a average hand to hit 95% of surface area while holding it. You might mean, just be able to type, or just be able to scroll, which does change things.
> Apple made smaller phones, but they don't sell. They don't sell when they are nice phones, but smaller, and they don't sell when they are cheap phones and smaller.
They funny thing is that the sales numbers were only terrible compared to other iPhones. IIRC it was something like 3% of the iPhone market at the time of discontinuation. Not a big seller for Apple, certainly, but there were times when the Mini made the top ten list for smartphones in general.
Yes, I too remember when Shaq starred in this commercial.
> So this is probably a really niche complaint that you and Shaq have
I developed a hypothesis when the phablets first started showing up and still feel it holds. There are two main clusters of users:
1) People who use their phone "on the go", specifically walking around and that sort of thing. Like I'm walking down the sidewalk and pull it out to check a message or see directions.
2) People who use their phone while stationary. Sitting on the couch, on the subway, on an airplane, that sort of thing.
People in group 1 generally lean towards smaller phones as the single handed usage comes in handy. You're not trying to surf the web doing this, so you don't need full usage, but you need to be able to hold it in your hand.
The people who are more stationary users don't have this restriction and they're more likely to want the full functionality when they're using it.
I use my iPhone SE with one hand all the time, and have small-ish hands. Being able to use a phone with one hand is a fairly basic accessibility feature, not a niche ask
I'm not Shaq and I also have this complaint. Moved recently from an iPhone 13 mini which I could easily use with one hand to a iPhone 17 Pro which I can not use with one hand.
Can confirm that I am not Shaq, but the 4S was the last phone I could use entirely one-handed (i.e. my thumb had full reach of the screen whilst my pinkie finger sat under the bottom of the phone, cradling it), and the 13 mini was the last functional size where I could reach at least part of the top of the screen with my thumb.
> I've never been able to use a smart phone with one hand, even an original iphone
The original iPhone is tiny. Are you misremembering?
I can use iphone SE (3rd gen) with one hand, and I'm not Shaq either presumably.
What? Plenty of people can use the smaller iPhones with just one hand.
Your question reminds me of this hilarious image after the ipad was released: https://cdn.osxdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/iboard-i...
It's battery life.
I was an iPhone 13 mini user for the last few years. I would buy a refurbished one off Amazon whenever my current one broke. I really prefer the smaller screen size.
Recently, I broke my phone again and my wife happened to have a larger iPhone laying around unused (through some accident of e-commerce). I felt weird buying a new phone when we had a perfectly good one laying around, so I decided to give it a shot.
I don't watch any video on my phone and most of my screentime is Kindle and Safari. My screentime is only like 2-3hrs per day. And yet, I still found myself chronically running out of batteries on the 13 mini. I actually now would prefer to keep my new annoyingly large 16e just to not have the battery anxiety.
(A hidden assumption in the above is that larger screens make more room for battery.)
You could just get the Magsafe battery though.
Sure and I did that, but I’d frequently forget it, it was annoying.
The data shows that people want to consume video content on their phones So bigger screens are better
That is it. Nothing else.
I'd also add that the mobile gaming market on iPhone is the largest individual gaming competitor, at least by the dollars, and bigger screen probably enhances play experiences that can be had on mobile.
i tend to watch videso on phone but love to switch to ipad for reading documents.
As an average height woman with average hands, I want 1) an Apple + Levi's collaboration to put iPad Mini sized pockets in women's jeans 2) a phone slightly smaller than the SE so I can reach the furthest corner with my thumb
I'm on an iPhone 13 mini and got the battery replaced this year - hoping to get another three years out of it.
Still on 87% battery health on my iPhone 13 (not mini) that’s approaching 5 years old. Still an awesome phone with great battery life!
I don’t plan to update it beyond iOS 18 though, and the Lightning port is becoming more and more of a pain over time.
Who wants bigger phones: Tens of millions in higher end market.
Who wants smaller phones: Tens of thousands in lower end market.
People act like bigger screens and no headphone jack is some conspiracy. It’s a competitive market. Small phones exist. Headphone jacks exist. They’re obscure because they don’t sell well, because that’s not what most people want.
It’s frustrating when you have an uncommon desire for a mass market product, I get it. But the answer to “why do they” is pretty obvious if you can understand that you’re not representative.
By that metric they shouldn’t release a folding phone at all, it’s a very niche market
I think they are exploring the market. But Apple has done very clear mistakes in the past, such as the Vision Pro and Apple Intelligence. It’s not like a very large corporation not understanding what their market wants is a new phenomenon.
In any case, with Apple the commentary is always the same, if they release a small phone next year people will be saying „Apple knows exactly what they are doing, that’s exactly what the market wants“, if they don’t it’s also a sign they know exactly what they are doing. Anyone expressing their dissatisfaction with the direction of a product line „is in a bubble and doesn’t know what others want so should be ignored“. That has been the case since decades now.
A very niche and growing market that 5 years from now will be 80% of all expensive phones.
I specifically have an iPhone SE for this reason. I should be able to reach the upper right corner with one hand.
The phone that grabs most attention always wins. Consumers don't do multi-year procurement processes unlike government agencies selecting a device - they literally gravitate towards bright light and pick up the device on the demo stand. So there's always going to be an arms race of more bigger and ever more glittery phones. That is, until a massive disruption like a flip-phone-to-smartphone transition comes and all those obnoxious peacocks gets instantly wiped out and doves come filling in the void.
Yeah I really miss the mini :(
I went out of my way to make sure I found a "new" iPhone 13 mini for my corporate BYOD (needed for on-call, and I hate the cert they push so there's no way I'd use my personal phone...)
The only corporate phones they offered were HUGE, being required to carry 2 phones is enough of an annoyance already, but two full-sized phones is a nightmare!
It’s crazy that the reason we can’t have a comfortable-to-hold one is that a product that only sells 5 or 10 million units a year isn’t worth their time.
Nobody bought the hp veer. Small phones stopped being valuable when phones got good enough to be the only screen a layman would see in a single day. It's now a game of 'movie theater in your pocket.' For better or for worse.
Even Samsung offers their 'smaller than a normal phone unfolds to a normal phone' as secondary to the flagship fold. The Flip, to me, is almost marketed as a kid's phone for your teenager.
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Because every time, they want it to be the next big thing.
I like bigger phones. Being over 50, my eyesight is crap and I need a bigger screen. Yeah, I miss one handed operation, but I already accepted that loss years ago. This will be the year I finally switch to apple though(18 pro max, most likely). Bye bye Pixel.
my first iPhone was the original SE (which was essentially iPhone 4 expanded to 16:9 screen) and I'd say it was the perfect size of a phone, the reason why I opted for a larger screen even though my hands are kinda small for a man is that website and application design has completely shifted towards those large screens and small screens are unusable (and for me this has been true since 2019 when I switched to a larger screen)
it is kinda annoying, but apparently the consensus of modern design includes both lots of useless horizontal margins (lots of them just for the sake of visible rounded corners) and lots of vertical space taken by ads (iPhone 17 is actually 19.5:9, not 16:9, so ads take less vertical space on such a screen)...
and after a few months of using a larger screen I learned how to use it with one hand so it is possible - I rest my phone on 4 fingers and use thumb to interact, I only use two hands when typing (well two thumbs, but whatever)... but I still agree that the bigger the phone the more I'm worried it will fall down from my hand when operating it with one hand... the Max versions of iPhone do seem too large for me...
For the Duo to make sense at all, it basically has to fold out into a screen which is big enough that (quite often, at least) you don't feel obliged to bring along a second, larger device anyway, or to wait until you get home or back to the office to "do real computer". That means that hitting a large-enough unfolded size and a suitable unfolded aspect ratio had to be Priority 1.
I think the iPhone 3G was peak iPhone design. It felt good to hold and was small. Later small models hand sharper edges and didn’t feel as good in the hand.
The Duo’s folded size has the same screen size as the iPhone mini, so they did go on the smaller size, rather than trying to unfold a Pro Max. It remains to be seen how the aspect ratio impacts one-handed use.
I’d take a small foldable over a large slab.
iPhone 5s was peak form factor IMHO. I thought I would be tempted by the folding iPhone but it looks way too wide for me to use comfortably
I’ll definitely need to head to an Apple Store to see how it works for my hand before making any decisions on it.
Yeah, I feel the same. I’m quite sure I will pass on it, but still, might be better IRL
The iPhone X also had smooth rounded edges and was small by modern standards (bigger than the 3GS, though). Still one of my favourite iPhones.
Most people now days put their phones in protective cases, so the sharp edges don’t matter too much. And if anything, it makes the cases easier to design and smaller/thinner.
The iPhone X was better than the 6-8, I think the screen filling the whole thing helped it out, but it was still too large for my liking. I moved to the mini when it came out to get a smaller phone.
I found it interesting that the intro of the Duo talked about how it had 90% of the screen of the iPhone 18, as a way to talk up how big it is. They didn’t do this for the iPhone mini, and I think it’s why it failed. The iPhone mini screen was only .1” smaller than the 8 Plus, in a form factor that was smaller than the normal 8. I think selling it like that, as the base level iPhone (without the mini label) would have made it a success… but I’m still bitter they killed it off.
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Others wrote complicated or bs jokes, here is my SIMPLE tip:
It has to change otherwise people would not buy new. Size can not change randomly so it has 2 ways: decreasing and later it becomes an iwatch, and tablet becomes a phone: this is stupid because harder to increase price.
So increase it is. If you do not like it, use a watch+earpiece as a phone.
Cars also seem to get bigger with each iteration. Then the introduce new smaller models that are the same size as the earlier model..
Why do people keep asking the same question over and over? It's because of market demand.
I have an S24 ultra and I had an even bigger Sony xperia a while back. I have an old iPhone SE ( the one in the form factor of the iPhone 4) and find it absolutely unusable. Typing is a joke.
While I agree on screen size, Apple does give a good amount of thought into application side of things - screen-layout fall into either the iPad like layout or single-column one of a regular phone. This is a bit easier for App developers. Also force-upgrade of OS is also better for those targeting iOS compared to the Android world.
For me it's fitting the damn thing in my pocket. And unfortunately, width is the main limiter there, making this far WORSE than any other, despite the smaller screen. I can't imagine what this thing would do to your jeans. Apple needs to sell tiny man satchels with this thing.
Agree. The comparison to a passport is ludicrous since a passport can be curled around your leg when it's in a pocket where this obviously cannot.
I've been hoping that the folded size would be roughly that of a mini, and perhaps I could be wasteful and get the foldable phone and always keep it folded. But this doesn't sound promising.
One of the reasons I plan on purchasing the iPhone Duo is actually because it has a smaller outer screen size than any of the other iPhones. Agreed that it is wider, but I think it can still be used one handed for most people
iPhone SE?
I also have huge hands, but a few years ago started to develop a persistent thumb sprain due “reaching” with it across my phone. This is problem that would not have happened if my phone was the size they used to be.
I want a smaller phone, but am burned out on android; had too many android garbage phones.
I’m leaning towards getting an old iPhone mini - but maybe someone knows a better alternative?
My z fold 8 is actually smaller than my old Xperia Z 3 Compact despite technically having a bigger screen. I would buy a device this size that doesnt unfold, even.
I don't understand this eSIM only trend. eSIM sucks for switching your service between devices or for travelling to countries where eSIM isn't a thing yet.
which countries are esims not a thing?
China, central Asia, etc
You cannot get an eSIM for a Chinese phone number as a tourist; this is a restriction set by the Chinese government.
yes, but only on Chinese regional models
Yeah. A foldable that is the size of the 12 mini so that you can use it with one hand but still fold out to watch something etc.
But instead we got the largest screen before unfolding…
That’s not correct.
For a second there from the name I was really hopeful that iPhone Duo _could_ have been the replacement for my iPhone 13 Mini.
I would guess more people care about battery life and the features that more battery capacity afford than ergonomics
When you're old enough to need reading glasses, larger is better.
I'd love a tiny phone. I just can't see it anymore.
It's probably a good idea to reduce phone computing to a minimum. Also the larger phone will likely damage your vision to need glasses eventually but there are other ergonomic factors at play. Do you want to hold your phone with two hands? Doesn't it get tiring for wrists to hold the phone in the position? I personally reduced phone usage but am still using a SE2022 which is a small phone. For reading I got a e ink reader and Im very happy with that.
They’ve made mini iPhones before and they didn’t kill. In fact, they sold poorly enough to get killed.
I think mini phones will have a resurgence.
The Duo is also pretty heavy at 254 grams (almost 9 ounces). The Fold8 is only 201 grams.
Maybe an increasing share of their market are people like me, that is, old and blind :-D
I still think the design and size of the 6s - peak technology.
The problem is people don't buy small phones. ASUS' Zenfone 9 and 10 were, in my opinion, basically perfect; small, someting I can actually hold in my non-athletic hands, but they didn't sell well at all, and ASUS abandoned the small phone market entirely with the Zenfone 11 Ultra.
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i do. i do reading and watching on my ipad mini. i can stop using that if i can get two in one device like this.
Bigger phone = bigger battery = more time between charges
I'm still on the iPhone 12 mini for this reason.
I’m still stuck on my iPhone 12 mini because I like the size
It's smaller though, until you unfold it
The size of the iPhone 16e is quite reasonable.
Did you use the iPhone mini
The iPhone 18 Pro has the exact same dimensions as the iPhone 17 Pro. It's only the new iPhone Duo that's bigger.
>Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Wait until you get old enough to have to put readers on to use your devices like most older people do. And while I am yelling at the kids on my lawn, let me add every UI/UX person at apple - the idiotic and unnecessary choices they make for the sake of "cool design" infuriate me on a daily basis.
Presumably they are a trillion dollar company because they know the precise size of phones that will sell to the most people. Hacker News is full of the 100 people (me included!) that love small phones but the general public LOVES their gigantic horrible loud phones :)
We are talking about how wide the phone is when folded. The company doesn’t know yet what exactly the market wants here, given it’s a new form factor for the apple audience
Agree. I miss the mini. My girlfriend still has hers and is reluctant to upgrade for the inflation in size that happens every generation. Pretty soon we'll all look stupid with tablet-sized phones hanging from our necks by a lanyard.
> But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands.
Are you a woman by any chance? I am currently typing this one handed on an iPhone 17 pro (not the pro max) and don’t consider my hands to be particularly large, for a man, but my wife has to two hand her android which is roughly the same size
Keep in mind the dimensions of the iPhone 1 were based on the most comfortable shape and size they could come up with. They weren’t targeting women specifically.
>Who wants bigger phones?
If we go by history, consumers. And when Apple last offered a smaller phone, consumers did not go for it.
The reason they keep getting bigger is because Apple is rotting. When a tech company rots, it gets bloated. That bloat seeps into the products.
They released a number of small iphones over the years, and those always failed to reach meaningful sales numbers. Stated vs revealed preference I guess? People keep picking the larger model, so the models keep getting larger
I don't follow iphone products, but if it's anything like android this is because they tend to be the lower end models and are missing the features that people really want (mainly a better camera/lens setup). The top of the line models are ALWAYS the bigger phones and if your going for something budget, then you're better off with the Chinese brands for value.
High quality camera lenses take space. That alone starts to dictate the size of the phone. Add in the desire for all day battery life, and we start talking more volume. And the fastest chips take more power, so again more battery. The best way to justify the increased size is with a bigger screen and now you’re stuck with a larger phone.
Or a smaller phone that is more expensive to produce. In which case, it won’t sell well regardless.
It’s easy to see how we got to this point of large phones, but it is not very clear how someone like Apple can make a significantly smaller phone and keep customers happy.
As you mentioned, other vendors probably will have better luck.
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For the iPhones, the small models were generally very capable. For example, the 13 mini was essentially identical to the regular 13 except for the physical size and battery life: https://www.apple.com/se/xc/iphone/compare?device1=IPHONE13M...
If small high-end models would sell, they’d be sold. It’s possible for a company to have a blind spot for a market segment, but not for an entire competitive market over many years.
I think it's because the people who want the smaller phone don't just want the smaller phone to the exclusion of everything else.
Some want a flagship model, some want a mid range, some entry level... all in small form factors and they won't compromise in order to settle for the one small model that's available.
You are describing me as well, but our market size is negligible compared to to 50% of the population that throws this thing in a purse.
What is "meaningful"?
I was listening to the Accidental Tech Podcast last week and Marco said that the iPhone Air has lower penetration, after 1 year, than EACH of the 12 mini and 13 mini _currently_ have. Among a tech audience.
We just had to replace a family 13 mini and it sucks to have to go with a huge modern phone. Personally, I'd also prefer a mini if it had the best cameras.
Enough to justify major manufacturers to go through the trouble
Flatly incorrect.
In 2020, the iPhone SE sold over 24 million units.
In 2022, sales of iPhone mini 13, iPhone mini 12, and iPhone SE made up 12% of total iPhone sales.
Thats despite intentionally nerfing every one of those models.
If you look at comparable phones, the iPhone 7 and 8 (4.7") outsold the iPhone 7 Plus and 8 Plus (5.5") by significant margins.
Nobody wants large phones.
Since Apple doesn't release iPhone sales figures per model, I'm suspicious about your sales metrics.
> 12%
> Nobody wants large phones.
Be serious. 88% of buyers chose something they don’t want? Apple is saying, “actually we hate money, so we’re not going to make a model that people want to buy”?
Why is it so hard for people to accept that maybe their preference isn’t the common one?
Your command is not engaging in good faith. You seem to believe somehow if Apple produced a higher end, smaller size phone it would magically outsell the higher end larger phone, with no evidence to suggest that.
The market, in both Android and iOS land has dictated larger phones are more favored. This is abundantly clear with the advent of "foldable" phone sector. On paper foldable phones make no sense, they are less resistant, more expensive and use a plastic screen, yet the market is growing year on year.
I totally respect someone's opinion on a small or large phone, but even the largest iPhone is fairly easy to hold and operate using one hand. I don't have big hands.
I don’t find “nobody wants large phones” while showing that the vast majority of buyers are willingly choosing large phones to be in particularly good faith to start with.
I know the general consensus is that the mini was cancelled for (relatively) low sales, but I wonder if that was due in part to the release of the SE? I got the SE 2 not because it was cheaper, but because it was smaller. At the time I was on a 2-3 year upgrade cycle, so when the 12 mini was released a couple of months later, I thought "cool, I'll upgrade to the 14 mini when it's released." Of course the mini was canceled after the 13, so I snatched up the 13 and will hold on to it until it crumbles in my hand.
Same with phones with replaceable batteries.
Right, because it scratches some nostalgia thing that people have obtained osmotically. Nobody actually wants a replaceable battery that makes their phone vastly thicker and harder to waterproof, nobody wants phones that randomly catch fire because their OOPLMXC brand battery from amazon wasn’t up to snuff, nobody wants to be carrying a pocket full of extra batteries to swap all day. Devices with field replaceable batteries just sucked a lot more than people don’t remember. As much as people clamor online about how they want these things, given the option they will shy away from it because it doesn’t match the fantasy that’s been created about “what has been taken from us”.
And headphone jacks.
By most Android vendors too?
I wish I could choose even thicker to get the Pro Max's battery life but with the Pro's ability to be held comfortably. You practically need two hands to take a screenshot with the Pro Max
totally agree with this
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People do NOT want smaller phones, that should be abundantly obvious.
>everyone is the same as me
I don't see it as a bigger phone.
It's a new thing.
Not a phone. Not a laptop. Not an iPad.
It's an agent terminal.
One thing I love about metric paper is the beauty of the simplicity: When you fold it, it maintains its ratio. This is because it is 1:1.41, aka 1:sqrt(2)
When I saw that this new phone is 1:1.4, I instantly appreciated why it is that way. Metric paper wins again!
Of all the ISO standards I wish the US would adopt, ISO216 would be it for me, hands down. I recently needed to buy some A6 thermal paper, a size no one seems to offer anymore. And who cares! Why would they! I can just buy an A4 sheet and cut it in half twice, no fuss.
Same here. I wish I could just use A4 paper, but usually when I put something on paper it is to share with others, who will not have an easy way to store or process it. It has to be a widely mandated switch.
Like only allow A* paper for government forms or something that would force everyone to switch their paper handling infrastructure to A*.
As a reference point, I’ve stubbornly been using A4 paper in both USA and Canada for years now with governments and businesses. Never had any problem with IRS, passport agency, CRA refusing to accept them, or even mentioning it at all in person.
No problem buying it either, though it’s about 2x the price of letter. (I go through about 100-200 sheets per year mostly due to my daughter drawing on it.)
I don’t actually store any printed paper since anything gets scanned and shredded, so no comment on long term filing.
(Due to this experience I recently partially switched to B5 paper, which is a nice size compromise instead of A5 which would be too small. Anything A4 will print to it without scaling issues of course, just takes up a bit less space.)
I think it would be pretty rare to find a paper "storage or processing " device that can accommodate letter but not A4.
Rare? A simple shipping cardboard box is sized to fit either A4 or letter sized piles of paper. Simple enough to change, but fairly common.
The US would need a president who is bullheaded enough to executive order a thing, like drop the penny or paper straws, but that also likes Europeans, so we might be waiting a while for a push from the US government. Printed media nerds, however, already know about benefits of A* and will switch as soon as they're in power and can spend the millions and millions of dollars it would cost their company to switch. Printed media is not as important as it once was, though, so the switch is really to start outputting PDFs as A4 and letting people print scale-to-fit when they actually need to print something you've sent them. Given how often my printer sees use, I doubt most people would notice if the PDFs you send them started being A4 instead of US letter.
The aspect ratio is the biggest problem with foldables.
The main reason I'd want a bigger display is for more immersive content like videos, which are typically 16:9. On a Pixel Fold, you have all the added complexity of the fold to make the videos you watch on the train 1cm taller.
The iPhone Duo unfolds to be the same height as the iPhone Pro Max. Sounds like it has the exact same problem - a bunch of added complexity without a practical use for it.
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> Touch ID is integrated into the side button
Another major flaw with the foldable form factor - it's hard to distinguish holding the device e.g. to pocket it and holding the device to use it. My foldable does the smartphone equivalent of butt-dialing way more often than any phone I've had before because it likes to unlock itself when I'm putting it in my pocket
Great point.
For media consumption on the go, I use AR glasses. They are considerably cheaper than the upgrade from an 18Pro to a Duo, and give you an absolutely giant screen.
Which AR glasses? I'm looking more for a travel MacBook virtual display that doesn't weigh so much as the Vision Pro. I would gladly trade away most of the Vision Pro features, but I'm also a huge snob about pixel density so remains to be seen if I can tolerate alternatives.
3+ year old XREAL Air AR Glasses.
I bought them to code more effectively on my laptop at my then girlfriend (now wife)'s house. The display was too pixely and distracting for me to code on. However, its plenty good enough for videos.
For videos I mostly use it with my phone (16 pro). Some apps are great (Netflix, AppleTV) and are smart enough to turn off the iPhone screen. Others (VLC, HBO) leave the screen on and burn battery at 2x-3x the rate of AppleTV or Netflix. I can watch AppleTV or Netflix on a coast-to-coast flight an still have plenty of battery left over. With HBO I use probably 20% battery per hour.
iPads have the same issue (to a lesser extent) if you're really looking for a device primarily for fullscreen 16:9 video. To be honest, the iPhone Duo (and iPads) are much more suited for multiple tiled apps and multi-column app layouts than they are for fullscreen 16:9 video.
I enjoyed the subtle shade (presumably at Samsung) when they discussed existing foldables having an awkward size, and choosing their new ratios and the asymmetric form factor. One edge square, one edge rounded, so all edges are rounded when open.
It's literally the same size as the Z Fold 8. The Samsung is $100 cheaper too.
Yep, it's same "passport" form factor as the (non-ultra) Z Fold 8, I just bought one last week and love the size.
I don't understand the value of the asymmetric corners, it seems to be working around their decision to have absolutely massive corner radius? Why would you want that?
I have a Z Fold 8 in the same passport form factor and it has slightly rounded corners on both the front and interior screen that are symmetrical along both axes. The usable space on the front screen is greater without those edges as it's just a ... normal phone screen?
Am I missing something?
> I enjoyed the subtle shade (presumably at Samsung) when they discussed existing foldables having an awkward size
I don't think that was subtle shade...
That being said, short-and-wide foldables have been done before, they just never stuck around. Google should've stuck with it on their Pixel Fold, same for Oppo with the Find N.
Shame that the short-and-wide foldables took this long to become more mainstream, since to me it's been the obvious form factor ever since I tried the older Galaxy Folds.
Samsung’s choice of square corners makes more sense for this type of device.
I suppose Google too. Basically every single one.
My pockets don’t care much about ISO paper standards (not sure why you call it metric? That doesn’t have much to do with the metric system as far as I’m aware?)
It's metric insofar that A0 has an area of exactly 1m².
B1 is exactly 1 meter tall.
Do you call ISO216 metric in the US? Where I’m from in Europe we just call it ISO/OSI or DIN standard format
Most people in the US aren't aware that everyone else uses a different size of paper. Heck, most people in the US aren't even aware that there are names for the sizes of paper we do use.
But it makes it really weird to type one handed I think.
As a reading device that is great, but as a phone that is wide.
I see a possible future where we have ultra thin devices that can be successively unfolded to larger formats based on this ratio, making size-based product variety obsolete. After that we get screen origami.
Nearly impossible to actually buy A4 paper in the US
Amazon typically has it; https://www.amazon.com/Hammermill-Paper-letter-Bright-Sheets... by Friday. I occasionally need some for Australian paperwork and forget where I stashed it every time. Some day I'll open a closet and find 20 reams of the stuff with a page or two missing.
I had no problem buying a ream at Staples.
I can have 10 reams of Hammermill 20lb in A4 at my door in less than a week for less than $100.
You get it online. I keep it around to print booklets for certain community purposes. I can set latex for A5, design the pages, then print the A5 pdf to A4 paper booklet and Tex, Mac and Brother understand with zero further brain investment from me .. . Letterpaper is a nightmare
Apple's submarine introduction of A* papersizes to the US.
Oh man if this is what got the US to adopt metric paper I would be so happy.
… wait you don’t use A* paper sizes? wtf do you use then?
I always thought when people mentioned a “legal pad” in us tv shows they were referring to the colour which always for some inexplicable reason seemed to be… yellow or blue…
now i know…
The people at Microsoft who made the Surface Duo must be feeling pretty weird seeing this. The name, the aspect ratio, the way the UI works, the gestures for setting up split-screen, the "use it as a tiny laptop" mode... It's all things they pioneered.
Not that that's a bad thing. I absolutely loved the Surface Duo, it was my favorite phone until it stopped working correctly, and I hope other Android manufacturers take note of this, not just Samsung. It's just wild to see how similar this new Duo is to the original Duo.
Good design is inevitable.
In a completely clean room environment where a designer had never seen a folding phone, but had all the context of the iPhone and everything Apple had done, they would develop almost exactly the same design and features.
Designers have also been exploring the concept of foldable devices for literal decades, well before any reached the market. I have an industrial design and technology degree, we did a project in 2005 where we explored the designs around this, looking at the UI, the physical interaction, everything. My design had a similar aspect ratio and size, as I am sure half the student did my year and every other year they ran the project. (the iPhone Duo is about thousand times better than my design though!)
Thats not to say the Microsoft designers didn't do an incredible job, they did, but they were building on decades of design ideation from those that had experimented before them.
Microsoft did a really interesting job with the surface duo but it was a complete flop
I find that story hard to believe. Your industrial design class designed folding iPhones 2 years before anyone had even seen the first iPhone? Sounds like a leap. That said, at the time, the most popular phone in the world was a folding phone, the Motorola Razr.
1. I didn't say we designed folding iPhones, I said devices.
2. Receipts: https://postimg.cc/8sDTTT0W
I think this was a first year project, and a small correction: mine want quite the same aspect ratio.
Best phone since 1996: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nokia_Communicator
A whole market of 1990s/2000s folding devices in similar categories, clamshells, PDAs, microPCs, palmtops, subnotebooks, handheld PCs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handheld_PC
> the "use it as a tiny laptop" mode... It's all things they pioneered.
This feature is also standard in existing folding phones. It's a pretty obvious feature tbh.
I thought the Pixel Fold didn't support this? No landscape keyboard?
Pixel Fold has had it for a few years, it's called "tabletop mode". Beyond just the keyboard "mini laptop" style, different apps also have special UIs for it, too. Like youtube puts playback controls on it.
Namewise, I feel like this is the original Duo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_Duo
Microsoft also had Windows XP Tablets [1] and also WinCE/PocketPC many years before.
While the Duo is more subtle for some changes, it might show us the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning and getting a mature product to the market.
At least from their presentation, it looks like they sat on the fence and looked at pretty much any good or bad thing that happened during the past years.
Seeing some reviews on the Samsung Fold for example, mentioned the speakers feeling weird as the audio orientation is fixed to the speakers location. Those little details make a difference.
I really hope modern Apple would go back to the details and nuances.
> the "new" Apple where the innovation comes from fine-tuning
That's actually the old Apple. Before the iPhone (and after Jobs' return) it was their standard operation procedure: the iMac was a refined workstation, the AirPort was a refined WiFi router, the Time Machine was a refined NAS, the iPod was a refined MP3 player...
Even after the iPad, they mostly cranked out middling stuff like the airPods, all the way to the Vision. They would take whatever good idea was floating around the hardware market, give it a careful polish, and sell it at twice the price. And there is nothing wrong with that - constantly chasing revolutions is risky (see the Vision).
> the iMac was a refined workstation, the AirPort was a refined WiFi router, the Time Machine was a refined NAS, the iPod was a refined MP3 player...
The word "refined" is doing a lot of work here. Just a few examples:
- The iMac had a design unlike any desktop computer before it.
- While a couple products had come before it, AirPort was the first affordable, mass-market consumer Wi-Fi router.
- The iPod was the first MP3 player to incorporate the then brand new 1.8" Toshiba hard drives that enabled it to have for the time incredible capacity for the package size. And Apple innovated with the click-wheel user interface.
All three of these products most people would see as much more than "refinements" but actually big innovations compared to what was already available in the market.
> The iMac had a design unlike any desktop computer before it.
Debatable, but it was still just a personal computer - sure, refined in exterior, but inside it was still just a workstation.
> AirPort was the first affordable, mass-market consumer Wi-Fi router.
Absolutely not. There were plenty already on the market. Was it the first one to have a name, rather than some crappy codename? Maybe. But mostly it was the polished version of an existing product.
> The iPod was the first MP3 player to incorporate the then brand new 1.8" Toshiba hard drives
It was still an MP3 player, there were already loads on the market - some even with similar capacity. It was refined in UI, yes.
> most people would see as much more than "refinements"
Most people with no knowledge of the market, maybe. Everyone in the space marvelled at the skills Apple displayed in taking existing products, refining them, and selling them like they were the first-ever products in those segments. That's when the "reality distortion field" was first described.
This is also why, multiple times, established players failed to understand these products would succeed - see the famous quips about the Zune and later the iPhone. Everyone knew those products existed already, they just did not grasp how Apple's knack for polishing (and marketing) could make such a big difference.
And the original AirPort Express in 2004 had a headphone jack! Well, a speaker socket. And it showed up on your mac laptop so you could play music to it wirelessly with iTunes.
Utterly brilliant.
I'll criticize Apple with the best of them, but AirPods being "middling?"
These are just... obvious design choices that a foldable phone lends itself to. I'm not going to complain when Ford comes out with a new car that has a circle you turn when you want to turn the car. It's what works.
If they were "obvious design choices" we wouldn't first have 2 other different designs (long and narrow, clamshell).
They are good design choices, which is different.
Did we forget about the vaporware Courier?
Apple continues to Microsoftify themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvX3laQlg14
The Surface Duo was a great idea with mediocre software and essentially no developer support.
The curse of doing anything interesting with Android.
It certainly feels like another 10% of the total effort expended would have made this product viable. And I keep saying that about Microsoft releases. It feel like an enormous effect to get to product release then complete abandonment - no communication, no improvements, no additions, no bugfixes.
Microsoft stole from Apple once before, so it's not like this hasn't been experienced in reverse.
The difference here is Microsoft didn't have to take the hardware and pivot a new OS onto it at the last minute.
Remember... the Duo was supposed to be a cursed Windows 10-esque device. They brought on Movial to do a pivot to Android, then bought out the porting team in early 2024 to keep working on what they should have released in preparation for the Duo 2 (which is what they actually NEEDED to sell as an Android device at the time, but flopped in doing so).
I returned mine in late 2023. It wasn't the best experience and I was missing out on things like NFC dearly.
Yeah, Microsoft and missing hardware opportunities goes perfectly together
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Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them? I don't mind folding. I think it's cool, and a nice way to get a useful space. But I have big hands, and I can't use my iphone 17 now without two hands. This is even wider before unfolding.
Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I want smaller phones. The width of the iPhone 4 was nearly perfect imo. If they would take modern display technology with approximately that width and expand it to 16:9, I think it would kill, even if it were relatively underpowered compared to the modern top of the line.
> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
Me. I get why people like small phones. But, I've have the iPhone Jumbo Huge edition for a long time now. I use my phone as a pocket tablet 10X more than as a phone.
Looking at the Duo specs https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/ vs my current 12 Max Pro specs https://support.apple.com/en-us/111874 it looks like the differences I care about are
1) 1878 pixels over 4.64" vs. 1284 over 3.07" 2) Default camera mode is 48 MP vs 12. Other modes are surprisingly similar. 3) A much faster CPU
I'm sure there are 1,000 more small differences. But, my 12 Jumbo Huge from late 2020 still runs great. If I were to upgrade, I'd get the Duo. We'll see how much longer I keep waiting, I guess.
The other night I was at an event and pulled out my iPhone 13 mini to show some people a video I had taken -- the two people on either side of me exclaimed and pulled out their iPhone minis and we all laughed about holding on to them until they turn to dust.
lol i have upgraded multiple times and i always end up back on the iphone mini. it's cost me a lot of money to find out how much i truly value small phones. my phone use is so balanced compared to some of the people i sit around who are just glued to their damn phones all the damn time. i love the utility that i can literally do whatever i need on the iphone mini, but i don't feel drawn to pick it up and just scroll much. i think the size helps reinforce that a lot, and i mostly feel like i have such a healthier relationship with screen time than my coworkers, family and friends.
if there was ever an iphone that was the size of the iphone 5 it would literally be over for me id pay 2000 dollars for it i dont care. there's literally no other options for small phones that don't suck right now i have looked exhaustively. the 13 mini is still the small phone king it's the best damn phone in the milky way.
Still to this day Apple 12/13 mini has been my absolute favourite form factor for a hand-held device. I appreciate Apple must have had their valid reasons to discontinue it, but it's such a shame.
I chickened out at last minute and went with the non-mini iPhone 12 because it had marginally better battery life. I regret that choice to this day.
The iPhone 13 mini feels huge compared to the 4s... I'd still use the 4s if it didn't have such horrible battery life or could run modern apps.
Also still haven’t moved on from the iPhone 12 - it’s a beast. I’ve dropped it thousands of times. Refuses to die or break. I think we’re due another mini run. They seem to come every 5-6 years.
> Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I have bad eyesight. I've worn bifocals since I was 16, and I'm twice that age now. I literally used to carry around a 7" tablet in my pocket in college because I didn't have a smartphone yet. I want to be able to make things big so I can read them easily and not have to scroll constantly.
At this point it's feeding screen addiction.
When I go for walks I only bring my smart watch. If I break an ankle or someone has an emergency we can talk. But I can't pull up a bench and doomscroll for an hour.
I don't think that follows. You can doomscroll at any screen size, small or big. If they don't fit in your pockets, it's probably harder to doomscroll on the phone, not easier.
It does follow. A bigger screen is more addictive.
The problem is some people thinking they know what's better for everyone
> Videos are also obviously better on the inner screen.
How? Most foldables I've seen have an inner screen with a ratio so bad that the full screen video results in mostly black bars and the image is barely bigger than watching it on the outside screen.
I can't help but notice how many times they mention "viewing content" during the demo.
It almost feels like they make smartphones not to be handy tools for the digital age (who am I kidding), but for ultimate content consumption.
They're vending machines. And they should have big windows.
People in their forties with money and declining eyesight who refuse to wear reading glasses until they really have to. (Me)
A tablet the folds up and fits in my pocket is perfect. Tablets are better for reading and watching things - they just kinda suck to carry around.
Lots of people. There’s a reason folding phones have been a big story for years.
Maybe they only sell to 5% of users but they sell and at top prices, meaning more possible profit.
And you can’t grow the iPhone at the current sizes. Everyone who once wants at one of those sizes already has one. You either have to convince them to upgrade or switch, and those are both hard.
However, if you give them a choice of something they haven’t had before, it’s way easier. Get the people who wanted to fold and went to android and would like to come back. Get the people who have a max and want something bigger. Get the people with an iPhone 13 who are simply curious enough to do the upgrade, but otherwise would’ve stood still.
Gotta sell.
I think they could get 0.1 to 1 percent increase in sales by fixing family/ screentime. It doesn't work flawlessly and a teenager is basically the same as a hacker and there are too many workarounds and it is very hard to harden either iPhone or Mac.
It also needs a kill switch. (Non parents will judge I am sure)
The device with good parental controls will be the go to for many parents regardless of practically anything else.
> Who wants bigger phones? Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
I literally just got 7 pairs of pants tailored with bigger pockets so they could hold my freaking phone without it falling out all the time. I would love a smaller more petite phone.
You are, I'm afraid, in the minority.
Apple produces a "small" phone (S or Mini series) only every few years because that's enough to saturate that market.
Yep. Last time they made a mini iPhone it didn’t sell as well as they expected. It seems the market loves big phones. I bet these folding iPhones will sell like hotcakes.
Soooo anytime now to bring it back right??
I want the rest of you to have big phones, so that the concept of "mobile friendly websites" can die. This is my sole interest in phones. So I hope the Duo can be held comfortably in landscape orientation, but I guess in fact it can't be held comfortably at all. Oh well.
It is true that mobile oriented design killed a lot of great web designs from the 00s. But its not just screen size, thumbs are less precise than mouse cursors, necessitating larger buttons and click areas.
Bad luck, accessibility standards require you to support 320px width without horizontal scroll bar for most elements, especially the main layout. (1280px with 400% zoom)
Best are websites that in order to be "mobile friendly" make it impossible to pinch-zoom images
Why? Responsive designs are great. They often work better on desktop, too - if you resize the window, you get a layout that “just works”.
Lots of companies make terrible websites, but has been true since long before mobile phones existed.
I like my Apple phone 4s too it was fine in its time but these days I need a bigger phone because the eyesight isn’t exactly what it used to be. I don’t need a giant phone, but I need something a little bit bigger than a 4s.
There was a while where the bezels were getting smaller and the pixels cleaner where getting a new iphone/ipad pretty much kept pace with my declining near vision.
But these days I pretty much need to buy different pants so the goddamned phone fits without dislocating my hip.
I kind of thought the same and then I invested a bit of money into seeing(!) an ophthalmologist. If it's correctable, do it. Better investment than a damn phone. Now I can go back to asking for a smaller phone.
If everybody thought like you they wouldn't have discontinued the iPhone mini because nobody bought it.
There's also plenty of small Android phones.
> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
Me! Sounds great. Ideally a full fold up laptops or some sort of HUD, but I'll take a pocket folding tablet for now.
Well, I'm with you and I was very excited when the iPhone Mini came out. However, the capabilities weren't equivalent to the regular-sized Pro (probably due to space reasons). So I didn't buy one despite loving the size and now cannot complain that it was discontinued.
I did buy one and I am still using it. It can do all the things I need a phone to do. Honestly if anything it’s still a bit too big.
I don’t know what I’ll do when this phone becomes obsolete. Get surgery for bigger hands?
It seems mad to me that it wasn’t more popular. Though a lot of things that are popular seem mad to me too.
> Honestly if anything it’s still a bit too big.
Stumbled on my old iPhone 5S in the back of a drawer recently and could not believe how good it felt in my hand, even having only used 12 and 13 Mini models since 2021. What an excellent form factor and construction. Would happily pay a big premium for a modern version of it. Dreaming of a sub-mini phone trend. Sell me a $1500 Zoolander phone—not even joking!
The older phones didn’t have the screen extending all the way to the edges, but the size was ideal. And yes, Zoolander promised a future that never came!
IMHO, one of the reasons I've been delaying an upgrade is because the standard sized iphone 13 ( not even pro ) I've had for a few years now is big enough already, anything larger just would not be ergonomic ( and I have large hands )...
Me. I love my Pro, and this year I'm switching to Max. My eyes (at 48) aren't what they used to be.
Why don't you try an increased font size with the display size you already got?
Because then less stuff fits on my screen? What a question
Felt like you hurt his ego I think you made him feel stupid, lol. Bet he didn’t realise you could do that or sommat.
what a response
> Why do they insist on every new phone being bigger than the phones before them?
Folded, I get, I want it to be a "regular size", but the only reason I don't like big devices is because they are clumsy to store in my pocket and use/grab one handed. If I can use it BOTH ways, now I have a choice. One handed for quick usage, and two handed for extended sessions. For $2K, yeah, I'm going to want a full fledged computer in my pocket.
I carry an iPhone because I love the size. I carry an iPad to read. This would be nice, although I prefer to keep these devices separate. The iPad isn't connected to my life, so it can enter my bedroom.
It's not a 2000 buck problem though.
Why not get a significantly cheaper (and much nicer for reading in my opinion) e-ink ereader?
I'd like to think if Steve were around, the apple watch would have been pushed for more battery life and connectivity instead of more health monitoring, which is a gimmick people mostly use for a few months and then turn off.
I'd like to carry my iPad and tether it to my watch instead of my phone, and just have those two and the headphones as my Personal Area Network. Nobody is even doing an all-in-one device anymore, but we keep pretending like that's the world we live in.
The problem is, health is easily the biggest thing in wearables. The problem for Apple is their health stuff isn’t up to snuff with their competitors.
As someone in the market for my first wearable, which devices are better for health tracking? thanks!
I don't wear a watch for health bs. I wear a watch to tell time; the fact that it can also call my family is a bonus. Or show the current weather.
I used to be a fan of smaller phones -- my current one is a 12 mini.
I'm getting this thing.
Changes in eyesight change your priorities.
I also want a small phone. I was happy with a Sony Xperia X Compact which is one inch shorter than my current Samsung A40, which is shorter and lighter than almost everything else.
The answer is people want that. It's not a novel idea. Huawei's folding phones are even bigger and they sell like hot cake at least in China.
That's why I prefer the flip format, over fold. Typing this on a Flip 3 I've had since 2021, very happy with it.
Don't blame Apple. They tried.
My iPad is my primary computer so... me.
They tried mini iPhones. They didn’t sell well. Unfortunately the market is just not there.
The same thing goes for cheaper phones. Apple has made some phones that were a little bit cheaper than the flagship phone, but most people still buy the more expensive phones if it’s not the most expensive, it’s the next one down that most people buy.
5c, three generations of SE, 16e and 17e
Apple has been pretty consistent with cheaper iPhones.
They sold just fine. They just didn't sell a billion million units, so in Apple land that was considered a "failure". Most manufacturers would've been stoked to get the sales figures the iPhone mini got.
It will be interesting to see Ternus’s moves in this space.
most people want bigger phones, apple made smaller iphones and they didnt sell
The obvious answer is that people actually want bigger phones and you're in minority. But no, let's pretend what you personally want trumps that and ridicule them for it instead.
But Steve Jobs taught me to jeer at people that would dare consider using a stylus with their phone. I need something to jeer at.
> Who wants bigger phones?
That's a mix, people like phones of all sizes.
> Who is like, "damn I wish I had a tablet that I could fold up and still barely fit in my pocket"?
But this question is silly. When your reference point switches from people buying phones to people buying tablets, there's a huge demand for tablets that are more portable.
Yeah I’d love another mini, but alas.
The flip side is I used to be the person that upgraded every year. Meanwhile I'm now sitting here with the most recent mini model and HODLing. I realize its' a drop in the bucket for them, it's their loss that I no longer purchase new equipment.
What's particularly frustrating about the discontinuing of the Mini is that it really didn't sell badly, just below _expectations_. Compared to every other model of phone sold by other manufacturers, I suspect the Mini outsold all but the most popular models.
From that perspective, the discontinuation feels more like an act of embarrassment by management than the result of a rational cost/benefit analysis. Given that reportedly the Air is selling substantially worse than the Minis, and I suspect the Duo will also fail to match its internal sales target because IMO Apple _usually_* overestimates the number of buyers willing to drop $2k+ for personal purchases (lots of corporations are willing to buy laptops for $2k+, but I suspect that almost all AVP/iPhone purchases are direct to consumer), I wonder if Ternus be willing to adopt a strategy that will keep profitable products around even if they don't meet their target. I suspect this is sort of an effect of the predictors being in some kind of high income bubble where _everyone_ they know has enough cash to drop $3500 to try out an AVP.
I had a Mini 12 and upgrade every 3 years, so I didn't bother with a mini 13. I ended up buying a base 15 and hoping that I wouldn't mind it, but my regret has only gotten stronger over time.
* Exception: they have dramatically underestimated the number of people wanting to buy high ram minis/studios for local AI.
> I suspect that almost all AVP/iPhone purchases are direct to consumer
I have worked for multiple companies that provide iPhones to employees, but neither of them would budget for the newest best version, unlike with the macbook pros. Companies know that if they buy devs computers with more ram and a bigger high resolution screen, we will get more done, but the main reason to provide a top end iPhone is as a perk.
Might be different with the Duo because I can see an argument for it being a better productivity device for people who need to send a lot of emails from a mobile.
There's a sizeable amount of us. I finally had the battery changed in my 13 Mini a few months ago. I don't want a larger phone.
The Duo has the same diagonal as a Mini when closed (5.4"), so I'd love to see them eventually embrace that size and release a 7:5 ratio SE or something similar.
Same, and I even always got the Pro, too. I'm still (happily) on 13 Mini.
I'm curious, what iOS are you running on it?
Yup. They released the air - but that’s not what I want. I want a smaller phone, not thinner.
"Who wants bigger phones?"
Everyone who buys larger phones instead of the iPhone Mini. The market decided that.
Kinda of. But the mini was released at a terrible time to get accurate data. The iPhone SE had launched 6 months earlier and had been lauded as the phone to get if you wanted a small iPhone. People who bought the SE were not ready to upgrade straight away to the mini. I suspect if the mini launched today it would see (a little) more success.
I'm sure Apple, and most other smartphone companies who have released a smaller phone before, are also at least as capable as us at accounting for launch timing in their investigations of what causes a phone to sell well and what doesn't.
Even outside of iPhones there isn't a large market for small phones. It's a niche market
the iphone mini unfortunately did not kill nor do most small iphones
How many times do HN users have to be told they are not the majority?
If you look at phone sales Pro Max out-sells the regular Pro
Regular people like big phones
Can attest to that. My wife always complains how big phones don't fit well in her shorts. But when I remind her of that when she is buying a new phone, she goes "Yeah well its annoying, but videos are nicer on a bigger screen".
Oh well :)
I’ve heard that many times…
By this logic they should discontinue the regular Pro.
>I want smaller phones.
You want a Zanco phone. They are tiny. Apparently designed to be small enough for prisoners to keep in their orifices.
[dead]
After four years of watching the JerryRigEverything YouTube channel snap Google's foldable phones in half at the same spot along the antenna lines, I'm looking forward to seeing how well this holds up.
Something this expensive should not be that fragile year after year.
new foldables are surprisingly strong along the spine. Not impossible to snap or damage but would support being accidentally sat on without it being catastrophic, for example.
> new foldables are surprisingly strong along the spine
Have you seen the video in question from two weeks ago?
> GOOGLE MADE A MISTAKE
Google is not a serious player in this space. They make benchmark phones for their industry partners.
Oh wow.
That looks extremely boring and unexciting. It doesn’t look like it’s Apple, it looks like Xiaoco Fold Z Duo 16.
Xiaomi copied the rumoured specs?
*Xiaomi
apple is always "late to the party" and regularly takes existing tech, polishes it to a high standard of UX, and introduces a new paradigm for consumer tech products. if xiaomi has ever done that please let me know.
not to mention that chinese consumer goods companies are largely siloed to the east anyways
I agree but that’s still my point.
The thing looks totally unpolished. The corners are horrible, the UX looks subpar.
It’s the first time I feel like Apple totally rushed a new product without any real vision.
*Xiaoco, I invented this ref.
Yeah I posted in another comment, but I'm quite confused by the corners. It's described like they solved some giant UX pain point on other foldables, but as far as I can tell it's a solution to a problem they created to make the corners have like a 50% radius? The screen is still so small I don't understand why that's desirable but maybe I'm missing the purpose.
It's to be distinctive in public from the square foldables. That's it. That's the reason.
If pasteurized-vanilla-milk-toast-paste was a product.
All folding phones will converge to this.
Z Fold 8 already has this form factor, just without the giant corners so the front/inside screen are symmetrical on both axes and share the same radius.
They must bend and flex, or they will crumple. Soon they will congregate, enclosed within the fold.
Well well how to turn tables..
Just a reminder to everyone, always buy the second version of any new product category, even from Apple. The first duo will look primitive in a few refresh cycles. It does look really cool though!
Considering how many comments I regularly see on Hacker News from people who still love their M1 MacBooks, I’d say that’s not a particularly strong maxim.
The AirPods, AirPods Pro, AirPods Max, HomePod, MacBook Neo, and AirTag are also all devices that have had well-received (if not always breakout) 1st-gen releases.
The M1 Macs were a bit different because Apple had already been designing their own CPUs for years, and the machine designs themselves were almost identical to previous iterations with Intel CPUs. The only thing they needed to get right was the software, which they did (and which could have been updated after the fact if they didn’t).
Yeah although my M4 is more powerful I somehow don't perceive it much and it's so heavy and gets hot. My aging M1 is still snappy for most workloads, the battery holds well, it's light. Only thing I resent is the stupid touch bar instead of proper F keys.
But I'd say it's the exception. In general it's better to wait for later generation.
Ah yes the m1 air for example which couldn't drive 2 external screens
Listen, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I will say I hope I'll at least get to update this comment down the line while holding that gorgeous looking phone in my hand
I get the sensibility of that advice but isn't that the case no matter when you buy it? I mean, they announced a nice iPhone Pro, optimized over multiple generations, and then immediately made it look primitive with the Duo. :)
v1 to v2 is the biggest leap, and each leap after that is smaller and smaller. Just look at the difference between the 17 pro and 18 pro.
M1 -> M2 wasn't a big leap, iPhone -> iPhone 3G wasn't _that_ big a leap (though 3G was nice to have)
what products _did_ have big leaps from v1 to v2?
3G also got gps and the app store. I'd say that was a pretty significant upgrade.
MacBook Air -> MacBook Air 2: unibody aluminum construction replaced plastic, ssd option introduced.
iPad -> iPad 2: cut thickness and weight by 30 %. A4 -> A5 doubled performance. Dramatically better screen. Introduced the magnetic case ecosystem.
iBook G3 -> G3 dual usb: from colorful clamshell/toilet seat design to sleek laptop. 30 % lighter, half the volume, twice as durable, 2-3x the performance.
And… Apple I -> Apple II? Apple I was a motherboard, the II was a complete computer.
I'm drawing a different conclusion than you about that upgrade. Sorry! I definitely understand your advice; it's especially the best option when you are financially risk-adverse or pessimistic about technology but need to participate.
*especially from Apple. I live by this maxim.
Of course, if too many people heed this advice there won't _be_ a second version to wait for.
Especially Apple. Buying a first gen Apple product hasn't been great since like 1999 at least. Very few exceptions.
John Ternus, and his co-presenters, still presented with the now institutionalized Apple-voice: obviously-rehearsed, emotionally-flat, robo-replay.
They spent their time practicing to recite, instead of talk, to people.
So hard to sit through.
I had assumed that was a genuine, if not inspiring, reflection of Cook's controlled non-spontaneous personality. Relative to Steve's emotionally-rich casual-coded excited-to-share delivery.
One big difference from Steve: it isn't the Steve show anymore. The people showing this stuff off are the people who lead the the teams that work on these things.
It's so much cooler to me to see the people closer to the work talking about it rather than just Steve Jobs, as amazing as he was to watch. I'll take slightly stilted any day of the week as a tradeoff.
Ternus did introduce a new rhetorical thing, though. He framed some of the guiding principles during the opening and throughout as ideas originating from himself, not Apple. Cook rarely said "I" in relation to a claim, other than "I'm so proud of" X, Y, Z. That's a bit more product guy, a bit more Opinionated. I am hoping for more of that.
I disagree twice. It was very cool to see Steve Jobs, and he was heavily involved in the work and design decisions, perhaps even more than the people presenting.
How? How involved? Like what exactly did he do?
He was often critical down to the specific detail, such as amount of padding on a button.
People under estimate how hard it is to talk naturally in front of a camera.
There’s a reason why acting as a profession exists.
As someone who has spoken on a lot of stages, it's hard. I do sort of agree that falling back on an obviously rehearsed (over-rehearsed?) style isn't great. Jobs wasn't that way but (mostly) but he was a real talent who could have sold sand to arabia.
I do think there's a general high-end corporate tendency these days to over-rehearse for big stages. I could name some CEOs who were doing it years ago. And I could name some CEOs who were terrible presenters but were very successful at least for a time.
He maybe didn't present that say but he did rehearse a lot
*way
slightly meta, but remember the time SJ got mad on stage and threw his demo camera?
That's true, but if you wanted to boil down the art of acting to one sentence it would be "do not pretend; actually do".
Jobs was a great actor in that he did not pretend to be excited. Whatever coaching is being given here is exactly in the opposite direction of acting.
It is just one approach, often referred to as method acting.
But good actors trained more classically can be just as convincing by pretending.
One is not better than the other, these are just different approaches, both capable of delivering excellent or terrible results, depending on your skills and practice. Being excited doesn't mean you look excited to an audience and vice versa.
Surely they have enough money to hire either someone to teach them to do it better or someone to give the presentation instead.
It’s also hard to be the CEO of a multi-trillion dollar company. Speaking is part of the job.
Nah, this is a deliberate choice.
Do they?
I think everyone knows how many hours they practiced and the depth of talent they could draw from. The inhuman consistency demonstrates a deliberate choice, that undermines their own message.
Care about impact wasn't just a Steve quirk, it was the reason keynotes were worth having.
Try saying "And one more thing..." in recent-Apple voice, without laughing or crying.
You can have the best acting coaches in the world and still not get ‘it’.
Comparing anyone at keynotes to Steve is challenging. He really was among the best at presentation.
> But find a voice that works for whoever is presenting
That's much much easier said than done. Sometimes the very rehearsed voice is as good as you're going to get, without the person being a professional lecturer.
> or get different presenters
It seems as though Apple is prioritizing having actual team leaders speaking about the products instead of just having hired actors do it. I'm perfectly happy with this.
You're not going to get Steve. For which I'm genuinely sorry.
But, yes, Apple has made the deliberate choice to have presenters who rehearse, rehearse, and rehearse. But many are not natural actors and will never be. You can mix things up a bit on a stage. But Apple does want a smooth production and puts a lot of money and effort into it.
Apple trying to make presenters 'act professionaly' is the problem, not the solution. Somehow it worked pre Apple campus?
Infinite Loop seems to have missed somehow. The old Apple with multiple dodgy buildings all over the show was perhaps a bit more chaotically creative. Now it all seems very rehearsed, architected. Too perfect, just like the campus.
Don’t forget about how they desperately try to figure out what to do with their hands.
It is distracting. Just use your hands normally. It just feels a bit alien and scripted.
Personally, I always loved the way Tim Cook would always do this little bouncy thing while he talked. He kept his knees always bent a bit, and every few words would do a little tiny bounce. Once you see it…
yes, the cringiest thing in the entire show.
I do hope John Ternus & his team change it up, but I wasn’t expecting it from this event. He’s only been CEO for 9 days & this was probably shot before then.
There is no matching Steve, but I would like to see Apple try at least one live event again a year. Covid is what brought around the super rehearsed video presentation, and it fit Cook well, but are the days of live keynotes really done?
It’s been a while since I watched an Apple presentation, but I caught a bit of this one. And I spent the whole time trying to figure out who it was for - the presenters didn’t seem to express any genuine excitement about the products, and it didn’t convey any useful information that couldn’t be better shared by just posting the slides.
The only thing I can see is that it generates some clips for the presenters to share on their LinkedIn pages. I assume there is prestige in being selected as a presenter, and the rest of the show serves its purpose simply by existing.
They need to do these live again with an audience. Miss the old steve days.
Doing it live isn’t going to bring Steve back. He was a natural showman, the people doing it now aren’t. They’re engineers and executives. Putting them on a live stage is going to make it even tougher on them.
me too, but I guess they feel they cannot afford any missteps.
I still enjoy Marc Benioff presentations. He's very engaging to watch, though not nearly as good as Jobs in terms of storytelling. I feel Jobs honed the craft more though.
Apple needs to bring back live keynotes instead of this overproduced TV show.
> Relative to Steve's emotionally-rich casual-coded excited-to-share delivery.
Example 1,494,298 of “most people aren’t Steve Jobs.” Can’t believe we are still doing this comparison. In a few weeks it will be 15 years old.
That’s something I noticed as well. It was very subtle, but my brain was telling me that something was off and the way people spoke was very artificial.
apple needs to rethink so much more fundamentally. Ternus talks identically to Tim Cook. Indistinguishable. It’s like when Jobs left, Apple became a reflection of the superficial touchstones that Jobs left behind, rather than the CEO defining what the culture is, and evolving it.
Give him 6 months... usually it takes a bit to change things around (including marketing / pr presentations).
But, he has been part of Apple for too long, and probably has internalized that style.
Hope he brings good change though...
Steve Jobs built sand castles at Apple, these guys are building Kings Landing.
Brand is brand. CEO is not brand.
Craig F with his constant foot-shuffling...
Despite that, still one of the most natural speakers in all their recent events.
I loved the disclaimer at the end of the iPhone Pro model that felt distinctly non-Apple and more akin to a drug commercial, "Usage of heavier models may be limited. Subscribers to certain iCloud+ plans will likely receive higher usage quotas. Now here's Sri to talk about electronics!"
People are insufferable with the amount of criticism
Like no one is above reproach and def everyone is open to criticism, it to open a thread with 1200 comments and see this as the first comment was super annoying
So much stuff to discuss and we are focusing on some presenters tone? jfc
I use it informally as a metric for whether there is anything meaningfully bad that I should be aware of. If this is what people bitch about, then probably the product is mostly pretty good.
I couldn't agree more with the criticism being too much. The negativity adds up and drowns a thread so much faster than the neutral comments. I don't know the reason it feels that way. And it seems so pervasive in so many places.
I wish there was a way to just put all criticism in a single thread and leave other thread trees for technology topics. Of course my first thought is a technology answer to a human problem.
That said, I simply couldn't sit through this presentation and did find it insufferable; and I've been waiting for a foldable iPhone for a long time. Having to close the presentation out of frustration tainted my purchasing decision.
a very neurotypical response
Finally, the foldable iPhone is out
It’s too expensive for me to even dare to have, but I do want to use it
But if there’s no particular improvement in the user experience, I would prefer the base model of the iPhone 18 coming out next year above all
What I’m most looking forward to on a foldable iPhone is viewing photos
I really love that sharp, fresh feel when viewing photos on the iPad, and I’m excited because I think I’ll be able to experience a similar feeling on this foldable iPhone as well.
It actually looks really nice; and I'd consider myself their target demographic conceptually. My last iPhone was a Pro for context.
But at a $2K starting price, plus likely another $200 for the storage size they really expect people to purchase, in this economy, it is so far outside of my price range it is dead to me.
Which is to say: Cool tech, but I've already dismissed it as something I want evaluate for my next phone just based on price alone.
That's maybe the real death-nail for folding phones: Price hasn't yet shifted to allow them to be mass market rather than enthusiast phones.
In my location I can order the Z Fold 8 for cheaper than the 18 Pro Max, and I can see in the price history that it has also been available for cheaper than the regular 18 Pro.
If I wouldn't at the moment focus on developing iOS apps, the Z Fold 8 would be very tempting.
That’s why these comparisons are silly. Ok sure there is a cool Samsung phone. Are you going to switch ecosystems for it? Probably not.
I see some iPhone Pro Max buyers getting this simply because they paid around $1200 last year, then after trade-in ($885 for a 17PM), they could get into the Duo for $1,200.
If someone had that amount of disposable income last year, they might have it to throw at another upgrade this year.
- It works with the pencil! This is a big big deal. I can do whiteboarding with customers quickly without having to break out a separate device, for example. Definitely unfortunate for the reMarkable Move and devices like that.
- They actually might have nailed the hinge and crease problems.
- I've been excited for this release ever since the rumor of the iPhone Air being a prototype of sorts for this came out. Two iPhone Airs fit very comfortably in my hip pack (though I only ever have one at a time).
The fact that it works with the pencil is a huge selling point for me. I wasn't really interested in a folding iPhone, but having something I can write on without also needing to carry an extra device or pocket notebook is really cool.
I still don't get the fanfare over folding phones. They tend to be more fragile, and if I really need a larger screen, I'd much rather use a laptop or tablet.
There's totally valid criticism to be made about the durability, not to mention price, but the pitch is crystal clear, "your phone can be a tablet on-demand". You (the proverbial you, not necessarily every person) always have your phone with you, but often don't have a tablet or laptop.
For many people the phone is the only computing device they use. Keeping portability and offering a larger display is a compelling offering for those people.
I tend to agree with you.
> For many people the phone is the only computing device they use.
I suspect the crossover area of the Venn diagram between people who spend what a foldable costs on a phone and people who have no other computing device is extremely small.
Why so? For most people a computer (in the traditional keyboard/mouse sense) isn't a leisure device, a phone is. They scroll social media feeds and watch YouTube or whatever.
I'm sure most of us on HN use them for leisure, but for most people a computer is a device for work, not for play.
I quite like the idea of a tablet I can keep in my pocket. If there was some sort of first-party attachable keyboard (a la the iPad magic keyboard), I'd be strongly considering getting this. In the age of AI and increasingly-mature cloud agents, I can get a lot of my work done from a setup like that.
Galaxy Fold is popular with older people who have trouble reading small text
That’s a good point bigger text is possible on the iPhone but you can display less of it so it might be nice to have the bigger screen.
I no longer need an iPad Mini in my bag with this thing...
It felt very "un-Apple" when they called it a foldable phone _before_ revealing it.
The folding part is the thing the tech journalists say; done right, it shouldn't matter whether it's foldable or not.
Bigger screen, pencil support, nano-glass, etc. The foldable part is obvious, why say it?
$2,000 for a phone? Holy price point, Batman. No thanks.
I assume the people who would buy something like this have enough money not to care, and also would not care about the second part of my comment, because they want New Thing or use their phones enough for it to be useful.
I guess it might be the case that the only way to make the folding screen thing even remotely work is a very, very expensive manufacturing process. But as is often the case, I don't see how it's worth it?
I want my phones smaller and with Touch ID, not enormous and wrinkly.
> $2,000 for a phone? Holy price point, Batman. No thanks.
Isn't that basically in line with the competition? Cheaper, even, than some of the competition?
$2800 here. What kinda of problem does that solve that's worth that kind of money? I'm seriously asking, because I can't figure it out. I can completely see buying an iPhone 18 Pro because you use it for work as an influencer or media creator, but this is close to twice the price and much less of a tool.
I don't think luxury phones necessarily need to solve problems. They're just luxury phones, people who can afford them will buy them because they like them, not because they're solving problems.
>What kinda of problem does that solve that's worth that kind of money?
If it means I don't have to put reading glasses on to use my phone, I'd pay a lot more...
Incredibly useless. It is obvious that Apple doesn't have UI/UX designers over 40. Increasing the font size doesn't effect everything and breaks too many things. For example, you can't change the size of the time in the top left. Style > usability all over the place. Don't get me started on the stupid watch...
I can't really answer that because I'm not the target for this particular model. I'd rather have a new Mini.
But I think this could be really appealing for a large number of normies who have a phone as their sole computing device.
An influencer needing the latest iphone is also ridiculous when you think about it. They are running instagram and tiktok after all, not waiting for software to compile. They don't even need the latest and greatest camera because all their content is only going to be viewed on a palm sized screen.
Doesn't it hide in a giant pink jelly case with a pop socket anyhow?
It's basically for people who want an iPhone and iPad, but in a device that's worse than both, while being more expensive than just buying one of each.
Good god, is it? My current phone is an iPhone SE 3rd Gen and I paid $250 for it on eBay.
That’s not a brand new folding phone. Those start at $1900 MSRP from what I see. However, you can get them a few hundred cheaper. Some of them cost even more than Apple.
People have been saying “Oh my God, who would pay $600 for a phone“ for 20 years. Clearly there are such people.
Most people don't actually realize they're paying $$$$ for their phone, as they get a phone with their mobile plan and they pay some monthly small sum for 24 months that lets them forget they'd never be able to afford it otherwise.
New flagship product with lots of features is more expensive than old entry level product purchased used?!
Not sure what expressing the cost of your current phone has to do with the discussion here, but I’m guessing this phone certainly isn’t for you. Some people choose to spend more on their phones, and some less.
> This $2,000 phone does not seem 8 times better than my $250 phone.
Well lets adjust the comparison you just made, then.
> A $10,000 car and a $80,000 car are going to be markedly different.
I can buy a Maserati Ghibli for under $10K on eBay and it will be very similar to the $109K Ghibli that Maserati would sell me today.
It's not really fair to compare a used phone price to a brand new one. The SE 3 sold for almost 500 when it was released.
Is this foldable 4x better than your SE 3? Almost definitely, by every metric, except size if you're into small things.
Your phone does not offer more screen area on demand. That is genuinely useful for many people. Apparently, not you, but that's OK.
Your opinion is duly noted.
have you considered that you might just not be the target market ? :)
As an engineer in a high cost of living location, you can buy this phone and still save some money in the same month.
However, maybe you can't buy a house there. For that you'd have to be a millionaire.
Pretty sure Apple and other manufacturers do market research before pouring tons of resources into it.
256GB galaxy z fold8 is ~$1900
I might get one. I've been using a mini for years and am pretty much giving up on Apple ever making one again. The AI features finally seem worth an upgrade, and I don't love the size of the Air, standard iPhone, or Pro/Max models.
If I'm going to have to two-hand it, this is perhaps not the worst. Also, it might be more one-handable when closed than regular iPhones.
Is it very expensive? Yes, especially if you don't opt for the base storage (256 is not enough in the age of LLMs). But I've not upgraded in 5 years, so I've got budget to spare.
> $2,000 for a phone?
> I assume the people who would buy something like this have enough money not to care, and also would not care about the second part of my comment, because they want New Thing or use their phones enough for it to be useful.
But what's the monthly price with Apple's upgrade program? I'd bet that's how most people will be buying it (me included, if I decide to get one).
they're definitely hoping the people who can't afford it simply lease it like an expensive car.
Lots of people can afford it. If you keep the phone two years, that works out to less than $3 / day. The lease option is even less. They're going to sell or lease a lot of these.
I think it's going to be very interesting to see how well the sales for the Duo do in year two and three. I suspect sales will go up, but wouldn't be shocked if they drop.
The number of people who buy junk food on credit they can't pay off is pretty much unfathomable at least in the USA. There are plenty of people for whom "$3 / day" is something they very realistically can't afford.
Yup. I mean I don’t have any need for this one, but in general, the cost it’s pretty low when you look at it from a monthly cost or a daily cost
You remind me of the (in)famous comment by Steve Ballmer when the iPhone was first introduced .
The functionality and user experience provided by first iPhone compared to its peers at time completely justified its price.
In comparison iPhone Duo only offers a bigger screen and even limited functionality when it comes to camera if you compare it with iPhone 18 Pro.
The first iPhone did not have 3G when it came out, no GPS either, and no App Store - you were stuck with all the stock apps. It was definitely far behind its peers in several key aspects
Here’s a flashback: https://www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/original-iphone-review/
I’ve said it before, but Ballmer was exactly right WHEN he said that. I know because I was one of the very few people in my area, notable for being a tech hub, who had an iPhone at release… only because my employer at the time paid for it.
I had a large, relatively well-paid, tech-savvy circle of friends (and many random strangers) who openly envied me but could not justify the price point.
The numbers back this up because iPhone sales didn’t start hockeysticking up until the next version was released, which allowed carriers to further subsidize smartphones with data plans that brought the upfront costs down to $200.
The iPhone was as much a technology revolution as it was a consumer financing one, but it is never discussed as such.
Most people don't buy their phones, they just finance it through the phone carrier as an "upgrade".
The phone carriers then upsells their more expensive plans.
In Canada they range from $3000-$4800. Absolutely bonkers prices.
Just Klarna (or shall we say, "Apple Upgrade" [1] now) it. You need to consume. Not want, need.
1: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2026/07/apple-upgrade-launche...
5 different people messaged me today saying they are pre ordering a duo
None of those people have ever messaged me about any other phone event ever
Is this such a big news that it'd warrant texting people over?
I don’t see the problem with the pricing. It’s the most used gadget and its an iphone and ipad in one.
Few pay it directly. It's paid in installments, subsidized by the carrier, traded-in for for an old but still okay phone, etc.
And those who want to boast, can of course buy for the full price. This is a non-zero share of the target market.
> subsidized by the carrier
You misspelled “you’re overcharged for your mobile subscription and get a phone”.
I try and usually succeed at using my phones for around 3 years, so it's not out of the question. Still have another year on my current one, I'll check out the next duo next year.
I am with you on this one, probably sales charts are up for foldable phones but I am not sure those people are reading the room correct. We want smaller devices more tactile if we wanted ipads we would get ipads.
Depending on the age, people are spending between 4-6.5 hours a day on their phone. How much are people spending on computers? Their mattress? 2,000 for the cutting edge version is frankly reasonable for what a phone provides in this day and age, especially considering the last 3 years of inflation in the US...
to sell a phone for such a ridiculous price you need to make it as obvious as possible - a folded phone is pretty obvious - now people can buy it as a status symbol. what's the point of a status symbol if not everybody around you immediately recognizes the item as very expensive. there you go.
$700 premium for Duo compared to iPhone Pro Max 18. Exactly the price of iPad mini 256GB.
It's not a phone, it's a status symbol fashion object.
Ok maybe it's that but it's definitely also a phone
I'd imagine its targeted in particular at producers - e.g. content producers.
There's enough buyers in the market.
It has Touch ID
Yes, I think this is an artifact of the new under-display camera (at least on the inside). The official copy states:
> iPhone Duo uses Touch ID, which is integrated into the side button. This gives you an easy, secure, and consistent way to authenticate iPhone Duo, whether it’s closed or open.
Probably no way to do FaceID from under a display yet.
And thank goodness for that. I loathe, hate, despite, reject Face ID. The Duo is too pricey for me, but Touch ID makes me reconsider.
It is also enormous and costs $2,000.
Shutup and take my money!
/s
Why do you like that over Face ID?
Not the person you're replying to, but Face ID just works much less reliably for me. I usually wear glasses, and when I get up in the morning and am not wearing them yet, it usually takes a number of tries before my phone will unlock. Sometimes it will also randomly not work in the middle of the day, maybe because of glares or something. Touch ID always just worked.
After jumping from an iPhone to a Pixel and back, the only thing I miss is fingerprint unlock which is way faster and more convenient than Face ID. You don’t need to adjust the phones position or anything if it’s too close to your face or in a position where it can’t scan your face.
I prefer TouchID because FaceID doesn't work when my phone is flat on the table and away from me. That's is how I use my phone most of the time, I don't really hold it up to my face.
I echo what lutoma said. I hateHateHATE the endless having to tilt and/or move around the phone all the time (especially, but not only, after awaking) to get Face ID to "work". Give me Touch ID any day.
according to the blurb you can lease it $60/month
Renting. It's $57 per month for 24 months and then you have to hand it in.
So you pay $1368 for the privilege of using the Duo for 2 years.
You get the choice to pay the remaining value of the phone and keep it, or enter a new "lease" agreement for a brand new phone at the end of the term. The formula is simple:
purchase fee = device list price – lease payments made – remaining discounts or trade-in credits.
If you're paying $1368 over 24 months, you could pay the remaining $632 after those 24 months and keep it with 0% interest.
Let's say you go to BMW or Lexus or Ford. You pay them $3000 and agree to pay them $500 a month for the next 3 years to use the car according to some conditions. The car is worth $60,000. You pay $21,000 over those three years. When you bring it back, they offer to let you buy it outright or to just hand it over to the dealer.
Is that leasing or renting in your country?
Is the difference between renting and leasing even meaningful? You chose a car rental agency for your example because it costs more per month to rent from a short-term rental agency. What is a lease but a long term loan? What difference does it make that I rent my apartment by signing a document called a "lease agreement"? Am I a renter? Or a leaser?
Renting/leasing is not automatically bad. The terms are what make one a good or a bad deal.
Lease. You can buy it out at the predefined price at the end.
This is not true, with leasing you don't own the product or property at all. Leasing is basically long-time rent. For example, when you lease a car, you don't own it - the leasing company does. In some cases, you can buy out the object at the end of the lease (like cars), in some cases you can't (like apartments).
> a financial construction where you actually own the product / property, with the bank having the option to claim it if you fail to pay.
This is called financing - basically, buying a thing with bank's money which they give you as a loan. For high-value purchases, there are often limitations on what you can do with the object, or requirements (like a requirement to have homeowner insurance for mortgages), but there are usually less restrictions compared to lease since you are the owner.
Ah.
Renting is you pay $X a month and when the contact ends everyone walks away. You don’t get the thing back, the other party does.
Leasing is close but slightly different. You still pay $X, you still don’t own it and can walk away at the end.
But with a lease you are given a choice to buy the thing at a pre-arranged price when the lease is over. So when you sign the contract you know that at the end you can pay $700 and it’s yours. Or you can still walk away.
It’s far, far more common with cars. The dealership guesses how much the car will be worth and offers you at lease based on that. If the car is worth more at the end of the lease than your buyout price, you can buy the car cheaper then you could, on the open market. If it’s worth less, you can walk away. You didn’t lose as much as you would have if you had gotten a loan, and you could go buy the same car used if you wanted for less.
For something like a phone, I’m not sure it really matters that much. So I don’t know why they decided to do leases.
It’s a lease, not rent. I don’t know the exact numbers on this but you can pay “rent” for two years and then pay like $300 (I don’t know what the right number is here) at the end to own it outright at that point. So at the end of the day you pay like $200 more than someone that buys it outright from the get go.
That's almost three of the phone I use daily per year.
$2800 in most of Europe
yeah, insane.
Yeah, these days hard to justify anything more than a $500-800 Android unless it's heavily subsidized.
For $2800 I'd rather have a laptop + phone.
It’s $2250+tax for europoors
Europoors is gonna be my favourite word from now on
Have you never heard of this derogative term?
Plenty of arrogant Americans use that term
Frankly this is the first time I’ve seen this term. At first I thought it was a typo
i love that we get these comments, even 20 years later. the phone costs what many (most? even?) folks on HN make in a day, after taxes.
You think most folks on HN are making $500,000 after taxes (being charitable and assuming "in a day" means a working day)? Moreover, does one commenter have to represent most folks? If someone makes less than $500,000, are they not allowed to voice their lack of desire for a phone that is affordable for the alleged majority who do make $500,000?
something around 20% of the site is from the bay area, where that is a somewhat middling salary, so yes.
and of course they can voice it, it's just boring; the point being there are more than plentiful amounts of folks that can trivially afford it.
> something around 20% of the site is from the bay area, where that is a somewhat middling salary, so yes.
What the hell, 500k after tax in california is likely close to a million before taxes. This isn't middling, even in the bay area.
Come on, most people are not making 700k a year even on HN. Probably closer to $300k at the high end and there are a lot of Europeans on here so probably closer to $100k.
you would be surprised; i would bet on the plurality being > $300k. hard to survive on much less in the bay area, in any case.
Honestly, that doesn’t seem all that crazy. I was actually expecting it to be closer to $3k
Then it would most probably have had the fate of Apple Vision Pro
My wife's first question:
Will this fit in a woman's hand?
Formally specified: there exists some human woman, in whose hand this will fit.
Can this woman play Rachmaninoff?
An olympic water polo goalie perhaps
It was clever that they used the reference point of a passport. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone complain about passports being unwieldy.
Personally I find passports slightly too large to comfortably fit in my pants pocket, and a passport is definitely thinner than this phone. Whenever I travel and have to have my passport in my pants pocket I’m always a bit uncomfortable about it, I usually prefer to keep it in my backpack or somewhere else. If you’re carrying this in a purse then it sounds great. The passport aspect ratio is pretty awesome on phones, I tried one shaped like this at a Chinese phone store last year and enjoyed it. But shoving a $2000 device the size of a thick passport into my pocket on a daily basis feels like a bad idea.
You hold your passport a few times a year, for maybe a few minutes. Probably less than 1 hour total per year. Many people will 5x that usage-time in just a day.
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Passport is also thinner than a pencil, not rigid, and will fold a little around your thigh in a tight pocket.
People don't try to type on their passport though.
They briefly showed the Duo opened partway like a laptop, and even had a keyboard displayed on the lower portion. Maybe it would be kind of like a smaller GPD Mini but with touchscreen instead of physical keys.
True, but passports are one of the few readable objects I can think of that regularly get used in both vertical and horizontal orientations.
It will save people a lot of time because they don't have to go to the Apple store, they can use their own passport to discover that the phone is still too big in a different dimension to use with one hand.
Just like the iPod's "deck of cards".
you don't carry your passport in your pocket every day
They are so unwieldy that the US has a passport card because the passport is too big for frequent travellers. I also will complain about how my passport's ID page is the second, not the first page, so you open the passport, and then always have to flip to the second page (unless you use a tiny bit of tape).
The passport card is almost exclusively for people who go back and forth to Canada and want to keep it in their wallet. Nobody is complaining about the size of a passport.
The passport card is only used for land and sea entries, it's not a full replacement for the passport (would be nice if it was) and never has been. It does work as a federally issued ID if you need one.
What. No. A passport card is not the same as a passport book in its capabilities.
I was actually looking forward to a smaller iPhone. To have less addictive screen time. It looks like the Air was a once-thing. I don't see them releasing an e-ink phone either.
Maybe the answer lies in only wearing an Ultra watch if it becomes powerful enough and can function independently of a phone.
I'm thinking of doing the same thing but I actually think the current Apple watch is already powerful enough.
Daily life is ok with it but most of the issues come from banking and governmental apps.
I wish society was not as keen on making everything go through smartphones nowadays.
Perhaps with a PopSocket.
I’m a little disappointed with how big it looks folded, I was hoping for a mini that could unfold…
Same. The product page strategically has zero images of a hand holding it folded. https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/
After looking one up... https://www.engadget.com/img/gallery/apple-iphone-duo-announ... It looks awkward to hold.
The dimensions closed seems like a weird form factor. I'd be interested in a folding iPhone (horizontal or vertical), but this seems off.
or pocket
no
There aren't many phones that fit in the tiny pockets that plague women's clothing. The clothing/fashion industry is to blame on that count.
bring back the mini!
Most women I knew with shattered screens had relatively large phones (max, plus, etc.), and the few of them who listened to my advice and got smaller phones, never broke the screens. Either girls over estimate their hands size (I guess compared to some YouTuber they see), or maybe bigger screens is just a status, or something else, but most girls have large phones for some reason.
If they mostly doomscroll tiktok they tend to want bigger screens
In general I've simply never known someone with an iPhone who's never shattered the screen lol.
I feel like it’s actually designed more with women in mind. Instagram influencing type women who will think nothing of spending $150 a month on it.
At some point these phones are powerful enough that we need to be able go get a desktop experience that can run macOS. Why is a 600 dollar neo more capable for productivity than a 2000 dollar iphone with a much beefier chip?
Canonical was simply 14 years too early, but we are rapidly apporaching this vision: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2012/02/ubuntu-for-android-c...
This is Apple's Achilles heel.
If another company could release something like the Duo that seamlessly switches between phone, tablet, and desktop experience and make it Apple quality then Apple are in trouble. The technology is all there since the days of Ubuntu Touch.
Sadly I don't think there is a company in a position to build such a device that could compete.
I don’t think Apple will ever do it.
I personally would like to see the phones behave like iPads when connected to screens and mice and such. I don’t need it to pretend to be a full Mac.
But we all know they’re on the same OS at this point. iOS and iPadOS are completely identical, and this only makes it more obvious.
This is what I want. If the Duo did something like convert into an iPadOS-like environment I’d buy it day one and sell my non-fold iPhone and iPad.
But I don’t want macOS on an iPhone/iPad. If I wanted a device with poorer hardware security that ran an OS with a fundamentally weaker security model I’d just buy a MacBook and be done with it.
IDK how a 2000 dollar phone would cannibalize macbooks more than a 700 dollar entry level macbook.
It's possible that the audience for anyone that would plug in their phone to a KVM setup is just too niche to care. Just seems like with computing being so expensive these days, I really want to get the most out of my devices.
Running android in a DeX mode is fine, but its still android. Now that MacOS is already optimized to run on mobile chips, it seems so limiting that it can't run on iPhones just because of customer segmentation.
iPhace Duo https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/
Looking back now it was quite ahead of its time.
Actually kindof awesome! ...but when I saw the phone call at the end my mind immediately went back to "Taco-Talkin' w/ the Nokia N-Gage"! => https://sidetalkin.com/original/
The main problems from that Duo was that Microsoft didn't believe in it.
This lead them to use a garbage CPU and support it for something like 2 years.
Apple has the balls to keep updating the vision pro even after it flopped and it will probably get 7 years.
The fedex driver that delivers to my office is still maining one of these. Its so cool.
Zune'd
August 12, 2020
Still use mine!
I will say it was a pain in the ass to open and answer calls though when you were busy doing things.
With some of what they showed, I wish they never separated iOS and iPadOS. The duo seems to be bringing more of the iPad features and if they could position this as one device to replace both (and the price point sure reflects that) it could be interesting.
But without that, I don't see the use for myself. Though I also rock a 13" iPad Pro so even with that it would be a hard sell to replace both.
I still am not sold on the entire idea of a foldable, there is some interesting things here and I will be interested to see how they position it over the next few generations.
I wish that too. Too many convenience features on both sides that are accidentally or intentionally not making it over, even when they would apply to both. I wish it had to be an explicit decision to lock functionality to only iPad or iPhone, rather than it having to be an explicit decision to make functionality available to both. Make the more likely decision the default.
Reminds me of the windows fold phone. ‘‘Twas the best of phones, but out of my price range at the time. Now I have nostalgia of windows phone, the best phone os that never was.
Even though I like the form factor I doubt I’d cash out 2k for it, seems like a waste just to spend more time on another screen.
I was quite surprised to see the under display camera. Wasn't expecting that.
Other than that, looks like there are some nice Duo specific features on iOS. $1999 is also surprising given that news outlets were reporting up to $2500. Plus it's price competitive with other foldables in the market.
What's up with all the negativity? Apple is finally doing something radical (for them) again with the iPhone, their bread and butter. And I'm all here for it. 10 years of the same form factor was getting old. I'm gonna buy this on release, easiest decision ever.
> What's up with all the negativity?
It's the horrible form factor.
I listed the 3 ways to make a folding phone (with examples) in my comment here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49636355
If they had chose either of the other two folding formats, and reduced the amount of screen they cut off in the corners, they probably would have had gold on their hands and shifted the market towards foldables.
Instead, they chose the bad one.
I have an 11 Pro iPhone, which I’ve had since 2019 now may be the time to upgrade.
Are you new to HN? There is literally nothing that the users on this site won't bitch and moan about.
I'll be curious to see how the hinge holds up against wear, tear and small particle intrusion over time. If people get to 2 years and it's still going great. Then I may pick up a Duo 3. But my adoption really comes down to the problems around the hinge.
This is what it comes down to for me as well. If Apple has somehow magically solved the reliability issues this will be fantastic, if they are just fad chasing it'll be DOA
It's so close to the "her" wallet thing that the main character pulls out to look at photos.
It's just too big, and too metal.
The form factor is good. I hope things move this direction.
More broadly, it's interesting that the movie has a beautiful future aesthetic that influenced tech most in the recent years. The muted colors with natural materials mixed with ubiquitous tech that was in the background of a human in a humane world where people mostly walk places. I feel like the AI company aesthetic barrowed a lot from that movie. Right down to their office furniture.
Now we just need to make a phone OS to put something like that on that isn't locked down. Forget the year of desktop linux. I am waiting for the year of phone linux. Android doesn't count.
What about left-handed people? Will the controls line up on the left?
I'm right-handed but I always keep my phone in my left pocket and use it with my left hand (keys have always been in my right pocket). I'm also pretty curious about the answer to this.
I’m in a weird spot because my iPad is old and my iPhone old.
So I’m in the market to buy new ones of each.
So I’m now having to decide if I just buy the Duo … instead of a new phone and new iPad.
But seems like a worse phone and worse iPad - than standalone.
(it does look like the best foldable I’ve seen though)
Foldable gimmicks aside the new materials and components sound really cool. How they have the screen layers that move freely seems innovative. The new ceramic they’re using for the outer shell/screen sounds great and I hope we see it in more of their devices:
“Ceramic Shield 2 on the outer display reduces glare and provides 3x better scratch resistance than the previous generation”
The folding/unfolding animation is one of the coolest I've seen from a foldable. So slick.
That impressed me too. Be if those “Apple touches” of yore. I kind of wonder how well it works in person, but it’s nice that it’s there at all.
"Seated. Set iPhone Duo down and watch a show or follow a workout at the perfect viewing angle — with easy access to the controls on the bottom." -- Is the outside screen REALLY that strong? Is it okay to put it on a rough surface like gravel?
I think the idea is the outside screen would be propped up, not on the ground. Though I do wonder if the outside-screen-down orientation is supported.
> Is the outside screen REALLY that strong
iPhone 17 pro glass is insanely strong
current iphone would have no issue with this as long as you dont apply pressure.
To be honest, I'm still having a hard time believing that Apple would release a device that you can completely ruin with just your fingernail...
That starting $2000 price tag.. is this going to be another Vision Pro?
Put MacOS on it and then we'll talk
> is this going to be another Vision Pro?
100%
The market for a phone like this is extremely small and the price makes it even smaller.
Exact words were said numerous times in Apple's lineup over the years. I don't think this is like Vision Pro however
I really hope that in the coming years we will be able to get smaller phones back into the market. Apple compared this to the size of a passport. A passport seems even bigger than a normal iPhone, even when folded. A number of people (especially women with smaller hands) I know are holding onto their iPhone Minis for as long as possible. I’d love a phone that was roughly normal iphone sized when unfolded but was a flip phone à la Motorola razrs in years gone by. I wouldn’t even need a screen on the outside. I know it’s hard for a company like Apple to be able to market “less phone” as a good thing, and I know the iPhone mini didn’t do great commercially but there’s a small cohort of users clamoring to have something for them.
I think you’re out of luck. If Apple can’t sell the mini I don’t know who will enter the market.
They still sold millions of minis. Can't sell is about relative terms to the rest of their iphone sales. Against that it looks poor. Against mac pro sales probably looks amazing. Sold by any other company the phone would probably be considered a success and still in the lineup.
And really, poor sales are no excuse. How many macbook skus do they have that barely move when you go through all the permutations of config? I don't want to work it out but I'd guess there are something like 24 skus of macbook pro they are barely selling in comparison to iphone sales. What's another model iphone in 3 storage tiers?
Another phone model is massively more expensive compared to changing RAM or storage in, say, the macbook lineup.
They can do it for sure, but they've deemed it's not worth it. I trust that they're in the business of making money when they feel it's worthwhile.
Apple sold plenty of minis. It just wasn’t a blockbuster. They also didn’t sell many pluses. They also didn’t sell many Airs.
For context, Apple sold 6 million minis, most Android manufacturers (other than Samsung and Google) can only dream of that volume.
Apple can do it, they just choose not to. It’s not like AVP is a roaring sales success.
They came out with the AVP saying it was niche production and made very few of them to begin with. They expected not to sell very many of them.
With that logic they shouldn’t sell a $2k folding phone either, it’s a niche market
Difference is they made a mini, it sold poorly, every time they make a phone with a bigger screen it sells like hotcakes.
They could. I think it would be nice if they would choose to.
I doubt they lost money on it. I’m guessing they just “didn’t make enough“ and decided it would be more profitable to spend that money elsewhere.
I will say as a software developer it was rough getting things working on that tiny screen.
But I know people loved it. I have family members who did. And I totally get it. But it just doesn’t seem to be a big enough part of the market for any of the big players to care at all.
Yea, I'm in this boat. My 13 mini has been dropped a couple of times. The screen is still functional, but it's on its last legs.
I spent a few hours researching the other night on what replacement phone I'd buy, and.... the answer was a refurbished 13 mini.
Same, 13 Mini is perfect. As soon as they release a similar form factor I'm all in.
Have you looked at the new Motorola Razrs? They're great. 4" external display that is easy to use one-handed and can run any Android app (though some apps and websites struggle with a screen that small), and it unfolds into a phablet for when you want a huge display.
I believe Samsung has a new one with a similar form factor too, though I haven't looked into it.
The Razrs are significantly larger, heavier, and wider than the mini. And they add the complication of a flip phone. Not really comparable.
The comment I was replying to said:
> I’d love a phone that was roughly normal iphone sized when unfolded but was a flip phone à la Motorola razrs in years gone by.
So the Razr does seem pretty comparable to what they were requesting.
Light is making a flip phone [1], and it's somewhat hackable now that they release an SDK [2]
I totally accept that I'm the minority.
When I was 12-13 I started taking a steroidal inhaler which inhibited my growth, so my hands are literally the same size as when I was 13. (maybe slightly wider).
As such I have about the same finger length as the average woman, and when I used the iPhone 4S and 5S I had no problems, I was not able to comfortably use the 6 with one hand, and it came with that ugly camera bump, so I returned it and tried to go Samsung. (it was big, but the rounded edges helped a fair bit) - the software sucked.
I bit the bullet and went back to my 5S, and when the SE (2nd gen - shaped like the iPhone 5 but with beefed internals) rolled out it was a day 1 purchase for me.
Ever since then I've been looking for a phone -- the iPhone "Mini" was as large as the 6 which was too large (I did buy one though) -- I eventually bought an iPhone 15 pro, but honestly, I hate it. It is the heaviest thing I carry daily and it doesn't do anything more than my 5 did that i care about, and I can't comfortably operate it. I start really disliking mobile devices because of it- and the software is getting worse year on year too.
I'm getting serious fatigue from this, but the world has not only caught up to a mobile world, now many things actively expect/require you to have a modern smart phone, especially in Sweden.
I suspect you might be interested in this crowdfunded project - https://smallandroidphone.com/
There has been no movement on this since 2023, and Migicovsky is now busy with reviving pebble
there is not demand. sales prove this. there is no amount of antidotal evidence you can offer: small phones don't sell.
same. my current SE 3 is starting to limp battery-wise and I'm about to switch to my backup one. Hoping they come to their senses before it wears out.
Why not change the battery? It’s fairly cheap and if you’re in a city lots of places can do it
I already had the backup but I'll keep that in mind for next time. the screen is fairly beat up too so I don't mind. I'll keep the old one around in case the replacement gets lost or stolen.
Apple Stores will happily swap the battery for you to a new Apple one for $79 IIRC
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People have always complained about HN being too snarky, or snarkier than it used to be. Comments like this don't help; they just compound the snark!
There has always been snark but I swear it has been really excessive lately.
Tim Cook burned goodwill kissing Trump's ass like Elon and Zuck did.
The old "Apple is different!" attitude was replaced with a police state.
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There's also just a growing number of the simple contrarian perspective mixed with the growing "anything new is bad" cultural lens.
Its brutally expensive and probably doesn't fit in a pocket well.
Do you expect hn being an uncritical apple fanclub?
Both could be said of the iPhone Pro as well, which continues to sell and sell well. It's obvious to me there's a market for this stuff I'm not part of, same as the Vision Pro, and that's fine.
There's no a market for the vision pro it had extremely poor sale numbers and there won't be a vision pro 2 as far as I know.
You can still critisis it and not just accept free advertising from apple on hn.
I'm not the market for it (I don't watch youtube, etc on phone), but I've seen some Samsung folds IRL and they are pretty amazing for video content.
This is a gorgeous design.
Beauty is subjective. That's not snark, that's reality. Nothing is "genuinely beautiful". You can't just call something beautiful and have everyone agree that it is in fact "beautiful". It's the most overused word in marketing.
>Beauty is subjective.
Yes.
>Nothing is "genuinely beautiful".
Not sure.
>You can't just call something beautiful
Yes I can.
>and have everyone agree that it is in fact "beautiful".
Of course not.
I guess we'll find out of there's much of a market for $2k phones. For the price one could get a regular iPhone and a decent iPad.
id rather buy both in a single device that i can carry in my pocket.
And have worse of both.
Give me a single-screen phone the size of this thing closed, and use the extra space inside for more battery and not more displays.
Aside: I'd also love it if it could be plugged into an external display and have a "desktop mode" (like a macos VM) that gets suspended/resumed on connect/disconnect instead of just expanding the "mobile mode" across the new screen. I realize this is probably a dream too far for most companies though, as it doesn't allow them to segment the market as much as requiring people to buy multiple devices.
I remember Ubuntu were going for that “dock it and it’s a full computer” idea about 10 years back with their failed phone OS project.
just buy this phone and don't open it up
Nice. That's right up there with "pretty sure a macbook pro could fit into most cargo pants pockets".
$1999 is ridiculous.
Edit: Wow, I didn’t know Samsung foldable was priced similarly. It’s a lot of money to pay for something inherently fragile.
While I won't pay it, it seems pretty comparable to other flagship foldable from Google and Samsung.
Doesn't make it less ridiculous, and that price for the other brands isn't less ridiculous either.
> $1999 is ridiculous.
Plenty of people on HN earn that much money in a single day after tax.
That's about $675k/year, assuming a 35% tax rate. I think that is a small fraction of HN users, but more to the point, if your argument is that the phone is not expensive if you make over $500k/year, I'm not sure that is a compelling argument...
It's also more than the cost of an iPhone Pro + a MacBook Neo (or several other combinations).
I'm just not seeing the value proposition for a $2000 phone. I already can't comfortably hold or type single-handed on the normal-sized Pro.
I base many of my purchases on how many hours per week I use them.
In terms of usage hours, my mobile phone comes out near the top. This makes the price almost immaterial.
your underwear must be expensive!
For most people this can replace an iPhone Pro, a MacBook Neo and their iPad.
For those people, $2000 is a good price for a device that does all their digital work.
The correct price comparison is between an iPhone Pro and an iPad Mini, in the US that would be $1199 + $599. So for an extra $200 you don't have to carry and charge 2 devices. Not a terrible pitch.
Sure, I guess, but I don't have a Mini, or any tablet for that matter. I used to and found the form factor didn't meet my needs. I'm happier with a phone and a laptop.
We'll have to see but it has a titanium frame with Ceramic shield front and back.
Obviously Apple knew where other foldable phones fell short; they clearly planned to overcome those shortcomings.
The retail price of the equivalent Samsung phone is $1900 (1899) - or $2100 for their 'Ultra' phone. Seems just in line to me.
I think there were rumors going even higher since Apple is so often a premium priced product.
Matching their top competitor in price is a good look.
They could’ve absolutely floored everyone if it had been $1500, but there’s no way that’s possible, at least having margins anywhere near what Apple likes.
My first thought is what happens when I drop a $1999 device and break it.
There is a reason that foldable is not taking off. The final test is this.
Definitely a v1 product but it's an interesting device. Apple is rarely first to market, but they definitely produce the device that indicates the point where there is a market.
You can also see where they are going. In a couple of years, assuming it sells well there will be a Pro model with a 3x fold and better camera system. I'm guessing to make in thinner they will have to drop USB-C and come up with a flat charging/data connector. The EU won't like that.
The final interesting thing is this is the first Apple product that I can think of since the iPod era that they've released a product that will cannibalize another Apple product. If you were looking at getting a high end iPad Mini this replaces both phone and tablet.
> Apple is rarely first to market, but they definitely produce the device that indicates the point where there is a market.
There's been a proven market for years already, but it's been less obvious in Western markets. In East Asian markets, foldables have had a very sizable market presence, especially in China.
There's other trends that are less obvious to US and western markets, such as phone crossbody straps (which are also very big in East Asia).
I've been out of the loop on foldable phones, and this is question is not related to specifically the iPhone Duo. How does it work that it doesn't show a crease in the middle? What's the breakthrough technology there? Or is there a visible crease?
We'll find out when the hands-on reviews start coming in. Right now, we're seeing Apple's carefully-curated press photos & renderings
the lcd is flexible, it doesn't fold in a sharp crease but uses a complicated hinge to roll it into a loose bend when closed. But maintaining a "crease-free" appearance after many use cycles seems to be a major challenge in this market.
Ahh, this makes more sense then with the animation on Apple's marketing landing page. There that shows all the parts for the hinge that shows that the materials slide over each other and that must be what maintains the loose bend underneath the scenes.
Thank you
I'll watch Marques when I want to get caught up on stuff like this, because he usually has a minimal fluff video on the subject.
For foldable phones, this might be a good pick to get caught up (5 months old, but minimal crease): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFUB_jL_XcM
On the Samsung Flip you can definitely see a crease—it's not super annoying but it's definitely there
And you’ll definitely feel it. Which is almost as annoying as seeing it.
On other phones it is visible, here we’ll see soon.
There will inevitably be a crease after a few weeks/months, as every folding phone has had. Apple is relying on Samsung's display tech, and Apple doesn't have better solutions than Samsung.
The reason it doesn't actively crease is because it's not like a piece of paper you press on to fold: the screen "rounds" itself, and as long as it doesn't go past a breakpoint (which is what the body of the phone prevents), it'll restore.
Probably true but they might have a better hinge, i.e. crease takes longer to appear due to superior folded geometry.
Apple: Every one else does folding wrong!
Also Apple: We've done it the exact way Samsung and Microsoft did it! We even used the same Duo name as Microsoft!
This comic from 14 years ago remains evergreen https://hijinksensue.com/comic/surface-tension/
Samsung had 7 generations of the wrong way, then one of the right way after they learned what Apple was doing. Microsoft literally does not have a product like this.
The real trick is waiting to see if they make a iPhone Duo 3 or 4. Knowing they are committed to the form factor and it’s not another Mini would be nice to know.
Also time to work out the hardware and software issues. Not trying to spend serious money on beta testing like a Vision Pro.
I think it will be like Apple Vision, a device that is more for developers than end user.
$2000 for an iphone, just insane.
I will gladly bet you an iPhone Duo that they’ll be unobtanium deep into 2027 and that they’ll sell millions of them on day 0.
Yeah this will singlehandedly triple the percentage of foldables out there
One thing I always wondered about Apple specifically is how do they actually coordinate so many layers of integration -- materials, hardware of various kinds, manufacturing, software. How is that done on like day-to-day basis?
I wonder if there's a practical way to protect the phone with a case, given that it folds and the dual screen is a big selling point. It feels like one accidental drop on concrete or a ceramic floor would cause a lot of damage.
IFF I can replace some of what I almost never use my iPad for with this, it _might_ be worth that price tag.
I'm on the fence! I do like a bigger but not too big screen for movies on planes etc.
https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/
It took me a while to figure out I had to click "Explore" to get to the specs, so I'm saving you the trouble.
As long as I'm griping about the web site... Apple, when you introduce a phone with a new and different form factor, please just tell me the dimensions straightaway. This one is shorter and wider than most phones. Is it too wide to fit in my pocket? I need the dimensions to answer that question.
It's a bit disappointing that it's 50g heavier than the Z Fold 8, and similar to the Pixel 9 Pro fold in weight and thickness, at 254 g / 5.2 mm / 11.3 mm.
I guess that's the tradeoff for Pencil support and the under screen camera.
I'm still salty these were removed from Samsung folds after the Fold 6, but having a thinner phone is nice too.
Looking forward to the first broken screens, and Apple's official reply:
"You're folding it wrong."
Wayyy too wide. it's wider than the 17Pro. So impossible to operate. It will sell out because it's new. But it will flop. More than the mini and the Air.
They should've used the iPhone mini width, and adjust height to that.
Super skip..
I actually disagree, I think this will be a massive hit.
I've long thought that the aspect ratio of a normal phone just feels old fashioned now and sucks for most tasks. So many times I go to do something on my phone and reach for my laptop instead because I know it'll be easier. But with this I could do most things on it.
Very cool, but yes, the form factor, which is the most crucial point, seems off.
10% wider than a pro max. I can't imagine that's going to feel good in your pocket
100% agree. The market for this will be miniscule. Look at how small the market for the iPad mini is. This will be even worse because it's 3x the price and has to be carried as a main device. How many people are wearing pants that can even physically fit this? This device is almost certainly too big to be comfortable in your front pocket. And if you are wearing something like athletic pants it's going to be so heavy it will pull your pants down... It's just impractical.
Somewhat related, Apple snuck in a $100 price increase on the regular iPhone 17.
All existing iPhones:
https://www.macworld.com/article/3229342/iphone-price-increa...
I’m curious to see how using Windows Remote Desktop iOS App will feel at this size if I can be productive or not.
My previous thought was to use XReal glasses with my existing iPhone but that’s not realistic in an office environment.
Really want information about if there is a left-handed software setting for the new side-oriented buttons
Yes, I also was curious about left-handed users watching the demo, it seems very right-hand oriented at this time. Maybe there will be a toggle in Settings to switch some of the UI around, kind of like how Apple Watch asks which wrist it's wrapped around.
Right handed women (which is a giant market) are going to love this thing.
They do it for the watch, so it should be on their radar.
It looks quite well done, though I'm definitely not in the target demographic for this. I'm happy with my high-end desktop devices and shittier mobile devices. The last thing I want is for my phone to be more capable and incentivize me to use it more lol. I use mine to call, text, listen to music, check email, use the map, track workouts, and basic web browsing. I don't need more than that.
I'm in the exact same boat. I already gave Apple a bunch of money for something with a hinge this summer, and it's a Mac that can actually run a terminal, a proper desktop browser, or even something wacky like x86 games through a compatibility layer, etc.
No way I prioritize that kind of cash on something that only runs mobile-tier software.
I am seriously tempted to get this phone (or the next iteration) when the time comes to upgrade from my iPhone 13. I think the aspect ratio would be perfect for coding on the go which is always a bit painful on a standard phone. Although there's just some inherently uncool about a folding phone, like I'd think twice about getting it out of my pocket at a party
I'm surprised they weren't able to figure out face id and had to go back to touch id.
Apple often aggressively cuts scope like this on first generation products and then brings back the features in the future updates. Maybe it’s to provide a reason to upgrade, maybe it’s just good project management but iPhone Duo 2 having “dual FaceID” sounds like something Apple would do.
Look at the low end iPhone’s slowing getting better screens, TouchID, and then FaceID.
They would have had to make an even larger section of the OLED translucent and traded internal space for an IR dot projector and a second camera beside the main one.
It would have made an even larger splotch of the screen look odd.
I'm surprised people like Face ID so much, it very often doesn't work for me. I frequently want to unlock a phone when I'm not looking at it or my face is not visible. Having Touch ID is a feature for me.
Phone’s already expensive enough and unless they have inner and outer faceid then they need touchid anyway
I just want a smaller phone
Duo screen: 7.6" vs iPad mini: 8.3". Duo will support Apple Pencil later. I wonder if many people with iPhone+iPad combination can now replace it with one device.
In the FAQ it says "Yes. iPhone Duo will work with Apple Pencil (USB-C). Coming later this year."
It kinda sounds like it's a new model of the Apple Pencil coming soon (rather than support coming soon), and older Pencil and Pencil Pros will not work at all. Which, if true, boo.
I never trust the later with Apple. Too often have they failed to deliver. Why release this without the obvious benefit?
I might be a minority but I never had interested in this foldable phone trend where you get just a bigger screen. I can't even consider dual display smartphone as a foldable phone. The benchmark for a foldable phone was Motorola Razr V3. I am not sure where they are going they really need some new people with some fresh ideas and vision. Sooner or later someone is going to start eating their lunch.
I’m not the target market for this phone at all, but I have to wonder how many people are going to take the 256 GB option for $1,999. It feels like that option only exists so they could show a starting price under $2,000.
The 512 GB version for $2,199 seems like option you’d really want as a minimum, and then you’d need to add AppleCare on top of that. Pricey!
Will have to give it a fingernail test in the apple store so I'm not destroying my own $2000 phone.
JerryRigEverything will deploy his hardness pick test in short order I'm sure.
This is pretty cool as a next-gen mini replacement.
The one downside of my iPhone 13 mini is the rare case where I do need more screen.
I couldn't spend $2000 on a phone, but I don't mind the direction.
I had such high hopes for this phone, but now I know it won’t replace my 13 Mini. It looks so wide you can barely hold it comfortably, let alone use it one-handed — and that's the whole point of a small phone for me.
Here's the Tech Specs page, which is slightly more hidden: https://www.apple.com/iphone-duo/specs/
Notably, the inner screen has a nano‑texture finish (which Apple normally upcharges significantly for), which implies it is glass.
Very strange how in the middle of a specs page for the device they a pitch there suggesting you get an Apple Card (formatted on the spec page as if it was actually a spec of this device) before continuing on with the rest of the specs/features.
I haven't looked, but am guessing the probably exists on other Apple specs pages.
in the keynote they explicitly said it was a polymer. Apple materials technology is really good, but it's not "folding glass" good.
I love my iPhone SE 3rd gen. Perfect form factor. Neither too big nor too small to be able to do useful things on it. My hands and arms hurt using large phones. I am so used to using one hand to operate phones. My previous was iPhone SE 1st gen. Why do people need such a large phone in day to day life usage? Carry an iPad/tablet if you really need one.
> I am so used to using one hand to operate phones.
I even forgot about this. God damn it, I enjoyed the SE so much because of this.
or buy a product that is small and does both things
$2000?! I know this is mostly sticker shock, but I wasn't expecting this price.
Looks like a cool device though.
It’s marked ip68, I wonder how they made the hinge water and dust proof
I tried the Samsung one with the same form factor in a store , and that is pretty nice. As someone traveling via plane or train, I can easily see myself using this and not carrying my tablet with me. However, just too expensive for my taste. I get a lot of new batteries for my current 12 pro for that price .
The transition effect from closed to open is so chef's kiss; the little things that set Apple apart.
As someone approaching mid 40s..
Is Apple screen enlargement over the years just matching the aging eyes of their core demographics? Close focal vision degrades, hold phone further, bigger phone useful.
Kind of like the stat how burning man is getting older every year cuz its mostly the same GenX cohort going since forever...
Screen size would have always been big, absent production costs and marketing price. Over time display tech just got better and cheaper to finally do it.
I would think it has far more to do with content consumption than it does eyesight.
The new iPhone Duo in single screen mode is the same size (5.4") as the iPhone 13 mini but with a different aspect ratio
https://photos.reportinglive.com/p/2026-09-09/f-bf86c6f5adb3...
It's uglier than the z fold 8 imo. Idk why manufactures even bother with the corner curve. It look imbalance.
A smaller closed size than current phones would be the main appeal for me. Phone bloat has gotten out of hand.
That's why I'm interested in the Motorola flipping phones which seem to be really small folded up and will support GrapheneOS.
On a side note, the amount of text on the page is just crazy. I remember older releases of apple products being basically just a slide show. Now we have a wall of text and image carousels?
Panos Panay must be so vindicated right now. The Surface Duo truly was ahead of its time.
The right idea at the wrong time is the wrong idea
This has some interesting features, but also a number of questionable decisions. The inner front camera placement is awkward for non-camera use, because despite being under-display won’t be completely invisible (as some shots in the presentation show). The on-screen unfolding transition is cringy and distracting. Apps and multitasking behaving differently on the inner screen depending on whether the hinge is flat or bent creates complexity and trade-offs, like when bending then phone so that it can stand on its own, or lie on an uneven surface. On the front screen, reserving the edge for special controls reduces the thumb reach for general content (like the app icons on the home screen).
I get excited about this but that's because I want this... not because I need it.
What I actually need might be less of an iPhone and more of a nano than a duo. Something small and portable that doesn't make me spend every spare second on the phone.
PSA: Spoiler alert for the show Silo in some of the demo shots.
Product demos spoiling TV shows… What a time to be alive.
A 2.39:1 cinematic movie occupies about 16.13 in² on Duo and 16.26 in² on 18 Pro Max
iPhone Duo 2 with working dual FaceID cameras will be a headline feature for sure.
It's made for viewing 70mm IMAX /s
I'm a little worried about the buttons moving up along the side, since I use my phone with my left hand... Hopefully there is more information about whether the OS supports moving the controls to the left, or even keeping them at the bottom.
So, just in general, I've been seeing more and more foldable phones like this. How well are they holding up now? Having Apple use one seems to be at least somewhat of a vote of confidence that the tech has reached some level of acceptable maturity, so I assume "not trash", but I don't know how good that represents. I'm a compulsive fiddler so I'm not really in the market for a phone I can fiddle to death without even consciously realizing it, but I'm at least curious if the tech is reaching the point where one might expect a more normal user to casually expect them to last 2+ years with normal use.
I know the early ones were really bad. My impression is I’ve stopped hearing about them failing all the time, so I assume they’ve gotten decent.
Curious to see all the new interaction paradigms people come up with now that we have something physical that can sense degrees of freedom.
A dumb one off the top of my head:
When reading a book with both screens open, have the outer display show the cover of the book, and closing and opening the screens together causes a page turn. (Unfortunately also a great way to rapidly wear out the hinge mechanism.)
There are some amusing apps which read the MacBook's lid angle sensor. I remember one of them played a creaking noise through the speakers when you open or close it... Somehow I doubt App Store review will let that in for the Duo, but we can always hope.
I still remember when people realized the MacBook had a sudden motion sensor and used it to make lightsaber noises:
https://osxdaily.com/2006/12/06/macsaber-turn-your-mac-into-...
Interesting that there seems to be no FaceID? They only mentioned TouchID. I assume it’s a limitation of the under-screen camera.
They’ve been doing Touch ID instead of faceID with some of their products a few times, I think some of the iPad models? but unfortunately touchID has like a 20% success rate with my fingers. FaceID works 100% of the time for me. I’ve never had good luck with any fingerprint scanners. I hope they can someday solve the issues with FaceID under the screen.
I wasn’t going to buy this product anyway. My current phone works and I have zero reason to upgrade. But if I was in the market, no facial recognition is honestly a dealbreaker.
Hard agree but only because I think TouchID on the sleep/wake button sucks. The home button-less design and gestures introduced on the iPhone X were obviously designed in tandem and only work with FaceID. I have Touch ID disabled on all of my devices that have it because it's so damn annoying now.
I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure they mentioned both Face ID and Touch ID in the stream. They wanted to add Touch ID because of the various angles people might use the phones with. Also mentioned that it'll unlock with your Apple Watch, like the Mac does right now.
I _much_ prefer Touch ID. Always hated Face ID.
FaceID is good in winter or cooking.
They need to just do both, honestly, whenever possible. Both methods have legions of fans and detractors.
I am happy that I will have managed to completely skip the requirement to use FaceID.
prob tech and UX issue. FaceID can't do side ways, and people opens side ways half the time. Maybe there are also functions unlockable wihtout clamshell opening. can't put 5 faceID on each side and facing every which way.
While at launch Face ID did not work in landscape, it does now. I can unlock my phone with my face in both landscape and portrait, although I guess not upside down? That might only be because I’m on an iPhone though. iPads might be more flexible.
It looks beautiful, but it’s definitely not something I’d buy in its first generation. I'd really want to wait and see how it fares after a year of real life usage.
It was interesting to see no shots of the iPhone Duo being used as an actual phone and I think because it probably will look silly.
That being said, this is the device I always wanted. Something between an iPad and iPhone.
Does anyone use their phone “like an actual phone” anymore, as in held to their ear?
Most people I see out and about are either using face time, or inexplicably speaking in speakerphone and holding the flat, face up, with the bottom of the phone towards to their mouth in a weird awkward way, or they are using headphones, wired or wireless.
Calling people is my least favorite feature of phones
Anyone noticed the headline has two "Hello"s for a phone that folds in two? John Ternus' first tweet was just "hello" and he opened the event the same way.
This has to be on purpose.
All this so people can watch The Odyssey as Nolan intended whilst on the go.
More seriously though, now do just the front screen on a non-folding device. It can even remain as thick as this thing when it's folded.
I wonder if you can hook it up to a monitor and use it like macOS. That would be the killer phone and killer laptop, then you just need to connect a mouse in and display or tv and work wherever. But I doubt Apple will ever do that, I don’t think they are bold enough to cannibalize their laptops.
Imagine being able to hook up a small slab to a keyboard or mouse Bluetooth then connect to a monitor, tablet or hotel tv, like the Samsung Dex can do. And run full laptop/desktop applications. One can dream
I would be excited if they shrunk a full laptop into a smaller format for working, but I can’t be excited about another device to steal my attention. Give me a device that’s the size of a mini tablet that expands into a laptop, not this abomination that just wants my eyeballs on advertising.
Despite what the marketing material would have you believe you can always see the fold. Even when it's fully open. Folding screens have been a solution in search of problem for like a decade now
> Folding screens have been a solution in search of problem for like a decade now
The problem is I want to have small phone that can be expanded to have large screen when needed, glad I’ve solved this decade long conundrum!
I like folding phones that go from half to full size. Fits in my pocket and I still get a big screen when I want.
How do you know? Have you seen a Duo?
[dead]
I'll pass on this. Less moving parts appeals to me. I'm sure the HW and SW engineers at Apple did a great job, but, i like the current form factor.
That hinge mechanism looks like some pretty wild engineering to me.
I would legitimately purchase a 'smart' phone that's just basically a 15-year old flip phone with maps and a modern battery + software stack. Awaiting the inevitable analog trend to kick back up so there are solid options here.
I've been rocking out a Casio F-91W (Retails new for $23) for about 3 months now - And all the annoyance I had with with my Apple Watch Ultra (16 hour battery, constant annoyance to upgrade, endless and useless notifications) - is gone. The CR2016 battery last 5+ YEARS , replacements are < $2. Watch has everything I ever cared about - Date, Time, Alarms, Light, Stopwatch, water resistance.
And, I don't think I've once missed having the big annoying clunker of a watch.
In the nicest possible way, are you in the wrong thread?
This is about a new folding phone not the watches.
(I am glad to hear you like your watch though. Casio are classic).
Correct thread - The Casio F-91W is the "FlipPhone" of watches. Going Retro on all our electronics. Retro Phone, Retro Watch, just walk away from the insane consumerism gadgetitis and find what makes you happy.
Aha! OK I can respect that.
There's definitely something satisfying about a product that's both cheap enough that it could be disposable but well designed enough that you actually want to keep it forever.
I think that Jobs would approve of the Casio F-91W.
If that's all you cared for, why would you buy an Apple Watch Ultra in the first place? Like a Casio F-91W is a great watch but it is a fundamentally different category than an Apple Watch Ultra even though they're both "watches". It's a bit like saying, " Hey, my calculator has a battery life that lasts years, while my super powerful laptop has a battery life that only lasts 12 hours and has to be updated constantly.
Like yeah.
100% every word you wrote. I watched the Apple video. Thought it would be great to have this amazing GPS capable watch, with a cellular phone (that, I will confess, I did use three or four times and it was really good) - maps, remote finding of my phone, etc...
Honestly - if it wasn't for the incessant nagging me to upgrade, letting me know it's going to upgrade, letting me know it had failed to upgrade, and the never ending useless notification that I kept having to edit/unsubscribe/remove stupid apps that I never installed - I probably wouldn't have switched for a short period of time.
What I would have never predicted is how getting rid of all that noise has just made me so much happier.
Also - didn't realize how much I hate having to charge my watch every 16 hours.
I think he's highlighting the all the bullshit the Apple Watch comes with has ended up meaningless crap after initially buying in to the Apple Watch hype for this guy. A laptop is a fundamentally different category than a calculator in both utility and capability.
I just got one of these (https://aiphor.com/products/bluefox-nx1-4-0-android-smartpho...) that I'm hoping to try and make my weekend phone. It's a small Android phone. It runs WhatsApp / Google Maps. I am going to set it up to forward my calls to it on the weekends. It just arrived, so I'm excited to try it out.
Wow, that's exactly the kind of form factor I'm looking for.
This and their newer Aura A1 I've wanted to get cause of the compact size, but they seem to lack support for US 5g bands
Please let us know how this works. It sounds like it might be a fit for my needs.
12 years, not 15, but there are currently BlackBerry Classic shipping with modern internals. I love mine, though I've flashed LineageOS for Android 16
Just put your iWatch (with LTE) into a 3D printed case; that gets you most of the way there minus battery life.
What I'd love to see is a modern Sidekick. The form factor was basically perfect.
Well there are options. https://commodore.net/callback/
Commodore Callback, maybe?
There are plenty Symbian phones around on 2nd hand shops.
Have you considered an Apple Watch Ultra? That way you can send/receive messages, calls, do maps and directions, listen to music, etc. but you can't mindlessly scroll media.
honestly an apple watch + airpods is basically that.
Can you just use the 2 without a phone?
Yes, if you get cellular on the watch.
For some values of "use". You cannot do without an iPhone (with a recent enough version of iOS): https://support.apple.com/en-us/109015
The folding phones are genuinely interesting although all the cool demos I've seen people do irl have been quite reliant on android being quite liberal as to what software you can run
Wow coming apple pencil support! That will be pretty awesome.
I thought so as well, but where do you put it when the phone is folded?
Time for pocket protectors to return! Geeks unite!
I would guess that they will release a folio that can accommodate one. If not, a competitor certainly will.
$2000!
I really don't get why people spend so much on flagship phones! I tend to aim for $200 Motos for me and my family, and it feels like it's a 90%+ solution at a tenth of the price. I can still browse the web, text with people, make calls, listen to music, and take pictures. They still last for years, and if they get dropped and the screen cracks, it just means its time to upgrade. What am I missing here?
Because 7 years from now, my iPhone will still have the latest OS and security updates. I also have the budget iPhone 16e. I also haven't broken a phone since I was 16. Not like cheap androids that are often abandonware by the device maker before they even hit the shelves.
It sucks. I wish that would change, but that is what made me switch from Android to iPhone after 12 years on Android. At the time, even flagship androids were lucky to get 2 years of OS updates and security fixes. Apparently Google and Samsung are going to support their devices longer, but I'll wait till they have a track record. But ultimately, an iPhone for me does come out cheaper over the lifetime of a device than cycling through cheap androids every 2 years.
I had to upgrade my 2021 iPad 9gen to a newer model to actually make is reasonably usable.
So I am not sure about recent track record for Apple.
My 2021 Pixel 6 works well for my mother and is getting updates.
Thats your experience. I've had the complete opposite. A 4 year old iPhone that still felt as snappy as it did the day I broke it out of the box. Never had an android that felt like that after 6 months.
And Apple have generations of devices that have gotten a full 7 years of support. We still havn't seen a generation of Android do that since Google changed their policy. I sincerely hope it does happen. Competition is better.
But here is a site with some EOL info on Pixel. Pixel 6 support looks like it ends in 3 weeks with a grand total of about 5 years of support.
Compare this with the iPhone 11 that came out in 2019 that will be able to run iOS27 (comes out next week) and the Pixel 6 that came out in 2021.
And the original point was, "why iPhone over cheap android $200." Pixel 6 was a flagship phone with a launch price of $599. You could have gotten an iPhone 13 mini (release in 2021) and for an extra hundred bucks, been supported until at least 2028.
In Europe that's the law. 7 years of security updates.
You can (and manufacturers do) release security updates for past major-version releases without backporting features.
At least for Android that's not a big deal as most of the system lives in independent applications.
People spend $30k extra to buy an Audi A6 instead of a Honda Accord daily.
So spending $1800 extra on a nice experience is still better than $30k extra.
I started paying for phones with really good cameras once I had kids and I wanted to take lots of pictures with them. I definitely notice the quality difference in random, off-the-cuff photos (which is the vast majority), though if I have time to set up a bit, cheaper phones produce pictures that look the same to me.
I'm not getting a first generation of these things but if I could replace my iPad and my iPhone with this, the economics start to make more sense. Not for everyone, of course, but it'd be within my budget for replacing both devices.
I'm not sure the unfolded version will be big enough to truly replace my iPad Pro, though.
you're missing blue bubbles, computational photography, and FOMO. re: nothing actually important.
many people have a phone as their only device though, so great screens and cameras and everything else are easily rationalized behind the managable cost of carrier plan's indirect loan.
There is widespread crippling phone addiction in our society. That is one reason why people want premium flagship features. If you are going to stare at your phone for 3+ hours a day, spending more to get the latest and greatest makes sense.
Well, this one folds, so you get a much larger screen surface that still fits in your pocket. And $200 won't get you that from any vendor. And while the low end phones have gotten amazingly good, a flag ship will still have a much better camera, better screen, better battery etc. If that's worth the price is a decision everyone has to make for themselves.
Sidenote, I've not had a single one of my smartphones crack a screen since 2008 when I got my first smartphone, take that for what it's worth.
Seriously though, for 2k you can get a good gaming PC even in today's market.
Or a pixel from 1 or 2 years ago new for like 300 bucks.
The camera, mostly.
And the Apple case is $129.
The hardware is probably stellar and it must be an incredible reading device, but it's 2026 and I refuse to buy a device with a proprietary locked down software ecosystem.
I sympathize but you're literally looking at something an hour old and demanding that the economic and political realities that produced it change entirely.
I too have nothing to contribute to this post.
Explore Pixel Grapheneos Lineageos or Fairphone Unlocked boot loader in pixel to load third party operating system. PinePhone for Linux Ubuntu touch
I agree with the sentiment and hopefully am using my last phone like that right now, but I’m also really hoping for very big advances for Linux phones before it comes time to upgrade. Right now they all seem to have serious drawbacks
Exactly my feelings. I want something with custom ROM.
Considering only two major mobile platforms exist and both are proprietary locked down software ecosystems, I assume you have a PinePhone or something?
The pixel bootloader can be unlocked, also Android is significantly more of an open platform than iOS. I mean, stuff like Morphe exists on Android.
Very brave take about Apple /s
let's see, next year i'll be due for a new iPad mini and iPhone pro max. $1300 for one, $600 for the other (or $750 if I want cellular, which I actually do), and suddenly this doesn't look out of reach... if only I could use a stylus with it!
Looks quite similar to the Huawei Pura X Max[0]. Funny how the cycle inverted.
I have never understood the appeal of foldables, but I guess with Apple launching them now, they're probably going to see significantly improved software support within the next few years
Did anybody want this?
Yes, with a much bigger screen I can definitely see this making me more productive and it is in between an iPad that getting through even minimal productivity tasks would work and bigger screens help a lot. Even though $1999 only gives you 256GB at least you get that low of a price point. Would have to see it in person though especially about the crease and the camera(s). (EDIT) I have a Clicks power keyboard which I can use with this. Seems like I should clarify that I can use this where a regular laptop can't be used. And since more people are interested in what I can use email, calendar and codex / Claude code (in fact Claude codr is why I have the clicks power keyboard)
Like what exact productivity tasks do you do on a phone for 2k USD that you cannot do as an example on a MacBook neo?
The ones I want to do on my iPhone.
This is usually because my iPhone dings more, and is connected to an always on network connection + phone network, so it's often the point of first-contact with any specific task/response/conversation/work unless I am sitting at my desk at home already.
And while I am someone who does take a laptop and an iPad with them in a backpack at lot of the time, that's not all the time. I'm not walking around the grocery store with a MacBook anything propped up on my cart. I'm not hanging from a strap on a bus or train with a laptop in my hands. And using a laptop on the couch usually makes my wrists hurt.
This is the real philosophical deep take of it all, are we using these devices, or are these devices using us?
I'm someone who often thinks of things to cook while grocery shopping. Oh theres such-and-such on sale, oooh they started carrying X, what the hell is that what can I use that in, that sort of thing.
When that happens I'll often want to look up recipes for that stuff right there in the store. The web has gone to trash. The mobile web is even worse. Adblockers can only help so much, its just that everyone dumbs everything down for small screens. So its very frustrating trying to process some search results and find a decent recipe for some-such and find the rest of the ingredients I need to buy. This is a low time committment task, I need to do this in a busy grocery store, and not block the part of the shelves I parked myself in front of for too long. I mean, I guess I could go home and use my desktop, but odds are I'll just forget. And no, I'm not gonna ask AI for a recipe.
On a screen that big, using Orion and locking it to "always show me desktop mode", I could more comfortably browse and look up these things than I can on my Pro Max sized phone now. The inner screen has a higher resolution than an iPad Mini.
Another example, and it was one they showed only very briefly in the video: I just want a bigger keyboard damnit. They showed an app taking up the top "half" of the inner screen, a keyboard taking up the lower half, with the phone folded at a 110ish degree angle. It's a Sidekick with a touch keyboard. So any time I have some serious typing to do (Slack message regarding something that requires a prompt response but isn't just a few words, not that hard to imagine other examples), that bigger screen is going to give me a keyboard that is much easier to type on than a Pro Max can, because the keys are going to be sized much larger and will not need to rely on the on-device typing guesstimator as much (and that thing is dumb as hell). God, being able to ssh into something and actually have some room for all of the extra keys that make working in a terminal easier, what a world!
Having a real computer for any of these tasks would of course be the ideal, but as portable as those have gotten, they still don't hold a candle to something that fits in my pocket and has a software stack that reliably lets me interact with it in a meaningful way without having to make room for a keyboard and a trackpad.
You can do a productivity task where you can't just have a MacBook Neo out.
Like what? Do you do your office or schools work in your phones?
You can’t carry a neo in your pocket or use it on the bus
It’s much nicer to use terminal on larger screens.
Nice! I like this answer. If I was someone who worked on the go more often I could probably see the appeal.
https://www.clicks.tech/ca/powerkeyboard
That's a very neat product.
I was hoping I didn't. But after watching the event, I kinda do.
I have to hand it to them, they added some really nice touches to the OS for the new form factor. Seems almost like the best of an iPhone and a iPad Mini.
Still not sure I want something that bulky, and maybe I'll wait a few months to see the reviews and how the hinge and screen fold hold up. But tempted for sure...
Why were you hoping you didn't?
I'm the sort of person to absentmindedly flex a metal fork enough times it snaps, so it's definitely not for me.
Probably, but do enough people want it? The iPhone SE and the mini was discontinued do to "poor" sales, meaning poor for an iPhone. I'm interested to see if Apple will stop selling the Duo if it only sells at the same rate as the SE.
I don't know who this is for and can't figure out what problem this solves. It's cool, but it's not $2800 cool (yes, it's $800 more expensive in some markets). For that price is has to do more than fold in half, maybe fold into a swan of something.
They just have to make it appealing enough, a loooot of people buy ipads because they're cool and they project themselves into all these fancy advertised situations, 90% of the time it ends up gathering dust or being used 15 min on a sunday morning while you're too lazy to get out of bed.
Most people I know who use iPads do so because a phone is too small to see or type on, but an actual computer/laptop is too complicated and intimidating to use.
From hunting mammoths to being intimidated by inanimate slabs of metal and glass, what a time to be alive
Yea. If there is one thing I learned over the years is that people always prefer a bigger screen, as long as it is still reasonable to hold.
This is especially true in the younger generation where many of them don’t own a computer. They do everything on their phones or iPads.
Are you suggesting Apple made a foldable phone without doing any market research on demand?
Apple isn't infallible. See AVP.
I can't think of an application outside of travel or long commutes on a train where I would use this. For a daily driver its too big to fit into a pants pocket and the price tag is TGH.
Yes I'm quite interested in a foldable from Apple. Have been since I got an 7" Acer Android tablet ~13 years ago and was annoyed at the necessity of carrying 2 devices.
No, for that money I can buy an iPhone and an iPad. Just checked, iPhone 17 256gb plus an iPad 13inch 256gb is about 100 euros cheaper than the cheapest iPhone duo.
A lot of people own Samsung foldable phones? They’re especially popular in China and South Korea
Are you offering?
I'm just reaching the age where I need reading glasses late in the day, and so in a couple years when I'm out of school and employed again, this is starting to look like the best option in the Kindle / Tablet space: it isn't just a flat pane of glass and it's no bigger than a Nintendo DS, so it will fit on my crowded surfaces and in my purse.
Do I want it? Ehhhh. I hate heavy objects. I stopped buying the Pro line because the weight just kept increasing. So I will probably not particularly enjoy that mass of batteries dragging on the purse strap. But I enjoy reading glasses less and I just don't want an unwieldy bigscreen that I can't hold easily like the iPhone Air.
I definitely didn't want one 30 minutes ago, but now that I've seen it the idea of a phone that can be smaller in the pocket but unfold to give a large screen is pretty darn appealing. Appealing enough to pay 50% more for it? Eh... probably not.
I do.
It’s not if anyone wants it or not. There’s always some melon who does. It’s more will they sell enough to break even on it.
They never mentioned wireless charging so I assume there's none?
What happened to faceid and island? Is this actually just a straight up Huawei clone.
They were very evasive on what the inner screen was made of. I'm going to assume its the same plastic all the other folding phones are made of.
Evasive? They literally discussed the layers of materials, with the outer being a polymer.
They went in pretty extensive detail for the internal parts of the folding screen?
They talked for several minutes on the materials and engineering that went into the screen and how it wasn't "the same plastic all the other folding phones are made of"
Modern foldables use ultra-thin glass (UTG). There’s a factory-installed screen protector layer on top which can make it feel plasticy.
Doesn't removing the "screen protector" destroy the pixels? Or was that just some early Samsungs? (that made an important built-in layer look like a screen protector)
Yea, it’s not supposed to be removed.
I was hopeful that the Apple foldable would use glass as the top layer so it doesn't get scratched. Plastic does not inspire confidence; no coating can actually protect it from damage because it can still simply get plastically squished.
This is really nice for people who read books and want to ditch carrying around a mini tablet or e-reader, I just wish it had the camera array of the iPhone Pros.
I saw it reported that it has a crease. personally I liked the surface duo better with it's 2 seperate screens.
Can I pay $1,000 and just take one of the smaller halves?
I would love that too. Dual-sided screen, 6mm thick.
My hope is that Apple getting in on this design will influence eBook makers to jump on the bandwagon.
I have not much to say about the device, probably great. But the image selection for showcasing the camera improvements seems odd. As a non US person, i have the impression it tries to tailor its branding the most cliche type of peer groups. The result seems quite ridiculous
I don’t see anything that odd about them. They’re young models of various ethnicities - basically the same people you’d see modeling the clothes at a store like Target. And they’re wearing/doing things that seem relatable to Apple’s core upper-middle-class customer base.
Think I'll just wait for the rumored iPhone Air 2. iPhone Air is for sure the best phone I've ever owned, the battery life doesn't bother me but the camera isn't ideal at all. Duo looks cool but I'm not sure I need a device that will encourage me to "play" on my phone more than I already shouldn't.
I'm a bit biased here, but I feel like the more form factors we introduce, the worse apps are going to get as developers now have to account for it (and they won't, eg YouTube on ipad). Do people actually like foldable phones enough?
I don't see the appeal of foldables personally but the way the screen animates during folding/unfolding is a very clever touch
The issue with this form factor is that the on-screen keyboard will take up half the screen on landscape with the phone open.
Typing in portrait should be very nice, however.
iPhone Duo is more like iPad Pocket. Touch ID + Apple Pencil Support coming later this year. It looks physically uncomfortable to hold.
I was really hoping they were going to slap an Apple Watch screen on the back of an iPhone Air and fold that in half.
I'll be waiting for an iPhone Duo Mini, I guess.
i'll be waiting right alongside. when i fold the phone i want it to be very small and preferably thin as possible. when i have the phone to my ear during a call i want it to be light as possible too. this is what lead me to get an early rehash of the razr https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Razr_(2020) but even that phone requires hand repositioning to reach the top of the screen when open. the 'chin' part allows it to be thinner but alas i wish it were thinner still, especially folded in a pocket. 6 years of use and i dont want a bigger phone, i want a smaller foldable but the product lines are doing the opposite!
i hope apple give a duo mini a serious try. apple, the market segment might be smaller but like a restaurant that includes special dietary needs for one person, that brings the whole family along for dinner!
I cannot believe that the central crease could disappear altogether!
Suspiciously could not see reviews of it yet - usually bloggers like mkbhd get their hands on early, and they release the reviews moment the embargo is off, usually when live event is over. This time nothing.
It doesn't come out until October. There won't be anything to review until then.
That's not true, the journalists are hands on with it right now.
Here's a live stream of the popular obnoxious streamer, he held it a few minutes ago (also talked with MKBHD).
A terminal app would be cool where the bottom half is a decent keyboard with arrow/pg keys
I guess it's not cool but if i had a fold phone I'd much prefer it be like the nintendo DS with 2 separate screens (taking up the whole space though). If they can make it foldable they should be able to have 2 screens without a bezel
The phone shows a date of April 1 in several screenshots. I would guess that is to pretend that the images were for an april fools joke in case they leaked?
You know Steve Jobs would have said it's 2x too thick, 2x too big and way too asymmetrical
I want the hardware, but with Linux! SteamOS or bazzite would be a good start..
What's the value of using one of these phones running iOS? iOS is great for media consumption and not so much for productivity... so I don't understand very well the use cases... apart from watching Netflix I guess?
iOS runs plenty of productivity software, many which run great on larger screen devices like this or iPads. What does "productivity" mean to you? Or is it just terminals and coding?
I might be a weirdo, but even the mail client on iOS has serious deficiencies. Just getting an email with a zip attachment where I have to edit / sign a document with a certificate / something, rezip and send back is a hell in iOS, while it simply feels natural in Android.
That is a huge market that they are ignoring.
Slightly better for documents and spreadsheets? Although I have a laptop for those, so... I guess I'm not the target audience.
Most people aren’t doing productivity. They’re watching videos and playing games. This would mean I don’t need my iPad on flights or when travelling. And when I’m travelling I don’t need to be doing productive things.
I used to be one of those people that would countdown the hours to Apple's launch events and tune in for the live stream. I was never someone who updated my iPhone every year, but I _did_ update my iPhone every two years.
Now, I can't even remember what version iPhone I have. I just remember that I bought it after my last one stopped working (after maybe 5 or 6 years of having it). I won't lie: part of the reason is that I'm just getting older and care less about these things.
But a bigger part is that new tech just isn't fun anymore...
I _hate_ using my current iPhone for surfing the web... because I can't run the full suite of ad-blocking software that I run on my computer (Firefox + uBlock, sponsor block; Little Snitch with tons of block lists). I hate that all that ad-blocking software is necessary... but that's a totally different rant.
I _hate_ that I'm being asked to spend $2000 on a device that will, by default, surveil me 24x7. I can spend HOURS trying to disable every feature designed to track me... and still not be certain that somewhere in the TOS that I've still given permission for them to vacuum up SOME piece of information about me.
And I _hate_ that Apple is now an ad company.
And yes, I acknowledge that with respect to privacy, Apple is STILL the less bad choice (compared to Android).
And yes, I acknowledge that there are other options. In fact, when this iPhone dies, I plan on getting a Pixel and putting GrapheneOS on it.
I guess what I'm saying is... I hope that there are more people like me out there... who are sick of paying thousands of dollars for devices that, instead of serving me, serve those who want to collect my information so they can sell me stuff.
edit: "because I can't" instead of "because can't"
looks nice, but if i still can't use terminal or closer to native cli, the pixel fold 10 with termux is still the right device for on-the-go development. termius is ok, but with termux i can run emacs on the pixel.
This made history because Apple never copied Microsoft before. https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/
Always loved the Surface Duo. I really liked the separation of the screens too; felt like dual monitors vs. ultrawide. It also forced the technology to focus the valueprop on multitasking versus more immersive/more bigger/more better. I'm curious about the iPhonr Duo; I have not been a huge fan of iPadOS or iOS, the former making me often wish for a macOS experience and the later having felt slower and less responsive over time (mostly due to animation speeds/aesthetic choices rather than a hardware defect).
They made a better version of a Microsoft product, this seems like par for the course.
Why not make it have equal corners. This forced rounded edges is insane. The lack of symmetry is absolutely bad design
How do you put a case on a foldable phone? Or do you not put one on, rely on the ceramic to protect the screen, and pay for Apple Care for cheap replacement screens?
It’s in the article: https://www.apple.com/newsroom/images/2026/09/apple-unveils-...
Thanks, I missed it on the event presentation.
They had two. One it appears to snap on magnetically, I think the other might have had too small hinges on it, but I didn’t look very hard, and it wasn’t on screen long.
The weight is interesting: 8.96 ounces (254 grams).
Not much more than the 18 pro max - 8.78 ounces (249 grams). The Duo sure looks chonky, but that's not the end of the world.
Well "kid cue" is pretty uncomfortable for some reason
Agreed. Disturbing.
I don't have kids -- what's wrong with this feature?
It's a vague ick.
Both parent and child are now mediating their experience through technology with the parent blaring recognizable intellectual property at the child to psychologically manipulate them into a better photo.
I mean, I remember having a guy squeak a rubber ducky at me when we took family photos... that part isn't new. What difference does it make that it's recognizable IP? It's Snoopy. Kids like Snoopy.
Nice form factor.
I have a Samsung Fold 4. The front screen is too narrow and the folding screen doesn't open all the way anymore.
Not what I expected from a 1400€ phone.
Personally I love this concept. I’d be able to stop carrying my laptop around and just monitor/respond to things via SSH from my phone.
I can't wait to see how bad the hinge does with ifixit.
It looks very useful with all the software integrations. Now the price tag however... Without financing it would be hard for majority of buyers to justify.
Doesn’t almost everyone finance their phone anyway? You pay a carrier x a month and get a phone and service for a few years. Maybe they’ll push the plan out from 2 years standard to 3 so it’s just as affordable for people?
TouchID only is an interesting choice, very interested in the 2nd iteration after we see the crease and hinge wear after a few thousand actuations.
If I had a choice of only Touch ID or Face ID, but not both, I would take Touch ID every day of the week and twice on Sundays.
It looks very wide in the unfolded configuration.
same thought. I'm wondering how I'm gonna fit that in my pocket.
What do you mean? Would you want to unfold it, then put it in your pocket?
Oh gosh, Phone costs $2K to $3K now!
how do i put the inevitable military-grade case on it so when I bounces it off the ground it wont smash?
The completely non-optional case situation for this is going to be a nightmare
Are the on screen controls fixed to the right ?
The curved right side makes me think so, but it sound like a pain for people using their phone left hand dominantly.
only 5 years or so late? How is this different then Samsungs foldable?
So excited to see if the "apple adoption delay" holds true here. Like more durability and actual long term software support.
for a first foldable iteration - apple has hit it out the park compared to other foldables on the market.
when the google & Samsung ones first came out they were plagued with problems.
but I think apple should've also had a foldable in the form of a razr ultra since they already have an iPhone air.
Usually Apple waits for other companies to work out the low-hanging-fruit problems, so they don’t have to release a device with a bunch of low-hanging-fruit mistakes. As a result, you shouldn’t grade them on the “first iteration” scale. They intentionally waited for other companies to work out the details and now their device gets to compete with the developed offerings of those companies.
It still looks quite decent though.
A foldable iPad that can make phone calls?
Seems that way! Small detail, but I liked that the front display can be used for taking selfies with the main camera. Opens the door for slightly nicer selfies with the self or friends, versus stuck with front camera or shooting blind.
Not sure if this new reimagining of the Apple Vision Pro is going to make it a hit.
I feel like the aspect ratio is a lot better than existing phones. It's basically a tablet.
These scroll down websites are so bad on desktop.
Price is just pure insanity.
50% more than the Z Fold 8, and still several hundred dollars more than the Z Fold 8 Ultra.
Who is this actually for? It's not for the average consumer that's for sure.
A first gen product like this is for early adopters and wealthy individuals who status seek
Can’t wait until my colleague who DMed me mid presentation to get one and break it like he did with his two Samsung ones.
I am left-handed (as is 1 in 10?), new UI really makes it unusable: dock and buttons are at the right side instead of being at the bottom.
And given the selfie camera position, I really doubt there is an accessibility setting to mirror the UI.
It looks neat but I’m confused by the layout. It has a smaller screen on the “outside” and then a big foldable double screen on the “inside.” Why? Why not wrap around the outside? You’d get to use all of the screen real estate at once, and the fold would be around a larger radius.
I’m sure there’s a good reason but what is it?
From a mechanical perspective, a screen around the outside would create a wrinkle rather than a crease when opened, and that wrinkle would be substantial. The phone would need some sliding/rolling mechanism to pull the screen flat. Possibly doable, but finicky and fragile. Especially considering elements like cameras, touch ID, etc.
From an experience perspective, I imagine it's just more satisfying to open it like a book. A screen on the outside would mean the inside is almost empty, just utilities like camera lenses.
That design was explored years ago with earlier foldables. The market consolidated on the two screen design pretty early.
not entirely sure why, but i’d guess there were durability concerns with the screen wrapping around the edge. might have also felt weird to hold. potentially the crease would be worse in unfolded mode as well.
My guess is the reason is, "how much screen would a user be willing to lose to the rear cameras?"
I think I'm just getting old because I no longer see the appeal nor do I understand the hype of new phones. It bends? Wow a useless gimmick for 3000$, just what I need.
I'm sure someone will love it, but it won't be me.
Huh, I kinda like the form factor of the folded Duo...don't even need to unfold it...
Huh, I kinda like the form factor of the folded Duo...don't even need to unfold it...
I wonder if the side bar controls can be moved to the left side. I always hold my phone using my left hand.
A stand-alone e-ink e-book reader in this form factor would be amazing.
I feel like they should have started with a folding iPad.
I’d like a comeback of the live events at some point. Especially now that there is a new CEO.
They are addicted to teleprompters. Steve Jobs didn't use them.
Google and Samsung have been at this for years. Nothing here is actual innovation, is it?
It's a shame there isn't the kind of competition in the US when it comes to mobile phones as there is in China. Many HN users would likely never buy a Chinese OEM device, but if you look at the variety of devices offered by Chinese brands, they're trying all sorts of approaches. Kind of like their EV market. Meanwhile, your choices in the US are Apple, Samsung, Motorola, Google, and that's pretty much it. I wouldn't say there's a ton of innovation between them...kind of like the large US automakers.
Depends on if it starts to get a crease after using it a while. I tend to assume that this is why Apple chose not to adopt folding screens as quickly as Android phones did.
I mean that is the business. These companies are in the business of ordering parts from components vendors and leasing floor space to assemble them after all. Folding screen is probably something you can order from many companies in shenzen at scale right now (or whichever chinese city is the "cell phone screen" hub, might not be shenzen).
Just like the first iPod and iPhone.
What iPods could make a phone call and browse the Web in 2007 that weren't made by Apple?
This looks like an IPAD in your hands. looks great <3
Absolutely none of the announcements today, make me want to go out and get something. I am giving the Duo a year or two, to work out the bugs, and get more capability. The extra screen space isn't really interesting to me.
The only ones I might consider, are the new base AirPods. I have never really warmed to the Pros (I have two pairs, but like the regular ones better).
I am looking forward to iOS27. I'm interested in seeing how the simulator presents the Duo.
Folded phones are the essence of “just because you can doesn’t mean you should”
isgood
Sandy ant video intro is good. Love the whimsical fun music, whatever it is.
Steve Jobs would have hated it
It makes the worst part of the iphone: text entry, even worse. I love the idea of a more capable PDA, but typing is more important than ever and it must be improved. Keyboards need to be a focus. Use eye tracking, use finger tracking, add physical buttons, just try something. Also, please fix the swiped keyboard software. It's unbearable. Admit it, fix it, quickly please.
Was there a reference to using AI to decide where to place the hinges?
It's about finding best matching hinges and phone frames.
Yes I thought that was weird and forced.
Steve Jobs is rolling in his grave at this atrocious design. Apple is lost without his vision.
The hard corners when its folded is a huge design breaker. The whole thing is THICK when folded. Jobs only added the bezel because it competed with the cases wrapped on phones. I don't see how any case will work on this behemoth.
I've seen what happens to the fold crease after a year, its a bit noticeable. It will degrade the prestigious quality of the brand.
Lastly, this copies all other fold phones. I'm surprised is all.
What is still missing is non foldable passport format. It is just great fit one hand operation
The top right selfie camera is a "courageous" choice.
Looks very similar to Samsung z fold
I'm interested to see what cases for this will look like.
I am buying this.
Anyone understand how cases will work for this?
Been using a galaxy fold for years now. This is the future.
What's your take on the aspect ratio question?
interesting design, would like a phone that opens up with a touch-typeable keyboard / nub mouse (to be like a pocket laptop / umpc)
It looks very wide in the unfolded configuration.
It took them only 7 years to catch up to Samsung!
10 years from now people will claim Apple invented folding smartphones or made them mainstream, just like they claim the same thing now about smartwatches.
Honestly don't see the appeal of foldable phones. I don't use my phone a lot, but the form factor even as a small tablet is not something useful for my phone use-cases.
When I'm at home, I can just use my iPad. When I'm on the road, I don't need to be watching content on a slightly larger screen.
I get that I'm not the target audience, but it's still confusing to me why people like foldable phones.
I know right. I don’t get it either. How could other people have different preferences?
First iPhone I've actually wanted in a long time.
Do you think this would work well for coding?
I'm so happy I stopped caring about new phones about five years ago, since then I've spent about $200 on phones – for a used pixel 8 that I installed GrapheneOS on.
Consumerism is mad.
Only 5 years ago? I feel like they stopped getting interesting and started getting increasingly worse like 5 years in. I'm still pissed off about the headphone jack.
5s/SE1 is still peak iPhone for me. I pull that thing out of the drawer every now and then and just marvel and the size and weight and how it is barely noticeable in my pocket even compared to my (ginormous in comparison) SE2.
Is it thicker than iPhone pro when folded?
I want it more thinner!!
SPOILER WARNING: There is huge spoiler for Silo in this ad if anyone is watching the show. Don't view if you don't want to learn the ending to Season 1.
Love the FaceTime camera behind the display
A bigger screen is nice and all, but it doesn't solve the input problem. Touch inputs are just terrible compared to a keyboard with a pointing device that isn't a finger or stylus. I always thought I had a problem with the size of the screen until I tried a foldable, and that taught me that I simply hate touch inputs on any screen size.
$2000-3,200 for a phone?
My next phone is an e-ink Mudita Kompact with a hardware kill switch. I can run a service to bridge iMessage if I decide I care.
With every year since they arrived in 2005 or so and especially accelerating since 2010, smartphone capability has grown with their creepiness. The expectation that you own one has almost turned into a demand. It's a total turn off. You don't need these capabilities, life goes on without it just fine. The drawbacks for your mental health and privacy are material.
Ladies and gentlemen, unfold your planned obsolescence! Be right at the crease of the progress!
Tim Cook you sly dog!
Surprised it was not named iPhone 18 Duo.
Naming it like that would subjectively tie them to the release schedule of the main Iphone line, while I imagine such a niche device will have a much slower schedule between new versions. If that is the case, they would want to continue selling this device alongside the Iphone 19 (and maybe 20, or even 21) without the name implying it is an old model.
Only duo thousand dollars
Great branding by the new CEO
f*ck you if you’re left-handed like me
How will a case work on this thing?
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mkr64zm/a/iphone-duo-foli...
Addition for anyone scrolling: Link to a case on Apple's website for this.
Another addition: Another case without the kickstand
https://www.apple.com/shop/product/mkr94zm/a/iphone-duo-case...
Oh gosh, it leaves the edge exposed. Crazy.
I would not, under any circumstance, use that official case.
My experience; I walked with an iPad Pro in my hand and I went to an interview, so I was a bit nervous. I let the iPad slip out of my hand. It had the official Apple cover, which leaves the edge exposed. So it falls, and drops such that it dents the side. This in turn cracks the display. I learned that Apple will not replace a display when the frame is damaged.
Do you think this is the first folding phone that ever existed? There are plenty of cases for folding phones, they've been around for many years already. Cases for this phone will likely work exactly the same.
Who even wants this?
It's particularly funny that you posted this after literally 1000+ comments on this thread, many of whom are responding to this positively.
This will sell great.
John Ternus as CEO seems to be good.
What is it about Hacker News that draws only criticism and negativity? Is it even possible to build a community that's optimistic?
my beloved surface duo has returned <3
Why do these things exist?
I mean I do understand the appeal of the idea of folding smartphones, but I did not hear about any miracle material breakthroughs lately. So.. how can this exist? Why does it say that it is durable, when it has to be made out of materials that cannot be durable or else they wouldn't fold.
Did something change there and I'm just using stale data for that assessment, or is "durability" just not as valuable to the target audience?
Has anyone lived with a foldable phone for a while? I just can't believe that the actuated element isnt going to end up a bundle of dead pixels.
I'm curious how large the market for this will be. I am a big guy and the Pro Max models are already huge in my pocket. How many people are really going to want a phone that is this big and bulky in their pockets? Will we see a rise in cargo pants?
This defeats the purpose. Even when folded it is too large! Fail.
The rounded corners look ridiculous on this phone. They also cut off a non-trivial part of the displayed content now.
Why is that area non-trivial? Do you use anything that has important content in the very corners? I've never seen anything that has important content in the areas this cuts off. I'm really curious about your use of corners!
It makes this area unusable if you want to show a page in a book reader, for example. Or a movie/video.
I also like to spectate games on Twitch/Youtube, and corners are often used for important stats.
The corners aren't rounded enough to impact those things though.
They absolutely are. Or they make things uncomfortably cramped, e.g.: https://www.apple.com/v/iphone-duo/a/images/overview/product...
You can look at other examples of controls that are way too close to the edge because they need to work around the bloated corners.
I find the new watches more interesting
* https://www.wired.com/story/apple-watch-series-12-apple-watc...
it's a mistake though to demand an iphone to own the watch (can't configure it otherwise)
always held me back from ever buying an apple watch, don't want an iphone or ipad
Yeah my apple watch was pretty much a brick after I switched to android
Honestly I have owned two Apple Watches and you are missing nothing. They do look nice if that’s your taste, but they are extremely locked down and are pretty useless without an iPhone. I cannot cite even one application that is a killer app on the Apple Watch. Most apps are just a companion for the iOS part of the app.
YMMV, but I have a Watch for:
- checking the time (obviously)
- sleep tracking
- high heart rate warnings
- sleep and heart rate trends over time
- reviewing notifications or declining calls without grabbing phone
None of these are "killer apps" but they're conveniences. I like having an accurate source of time that I don't have to pick something up for. I like being able to track my sleep schedule and duration over time. I like to know when my heart rate is high so I can take steps to quiet down. I don't use many of the other features, maybe some sparingly, but I've never really used the Watch for its apps anyway. And I think only the last feature on my list, maybe the last two, needs iPhone.
I've had to go without my Watch for the better part of half a year because it's refurbished and I've been trying to diagnose an Apple Developer Program enrollment issue, and Apple won't tell me which device was previously used so I have to rule out everything I didn't purchase brand new, etc., but I still constantly feel its absence. It's just a convenience but it was a welcome one.
Note that the Watch did previously require an iPhone for initial setup, but it does not anymore.
Oh but I agree that the Apple Watch does all of that very well, I myself use it mostly for this.
I was just answering to gp : the Apple Watch pretty much only make sense if you own an iPhone. Else, you’d better buy any other smartwatch brand which will allow you to do much more than an Apple Watch without an iPhone.
> can't configure it otherwise
This has not been true for a while. Google "apple watch family setup". You just need to know someone with an iphone, once, to set it up. You can even set up cellular and use that for all watch internet needs, incl imessage, calls, facetim (audio), and weather & apps
I took the tethering demand as Apple chickening out from Watch doing to iPhone what iPhone did to iPod. Having used a cell plan watch for a while, I can almost do away with the full phone aside from it being a requirement to manage the watch.
Think different :-D
will buy it for the kid cue feature alone; what a neat idea. i mainly use my iphone for reading books and taking pictures of my kids so the format will be perfect for me.
Reading might be the one use-case for a foldable phone when you're on the go. Even so, a basic Kindle fits in a purse / fanny-pack just fine and is much more comfortable on the eyes.
agreed about the kindle being more comfortable, but, the best reading device (+ camera) is one you always have on you.
$1999
For comparison, Samsung Galaxy Z Fold is ~$1700.
It's good to see Apple is taking the fold transition seriously. I have a Z Fold, and Samsung elegantly handles the app transition from fold to unfold by force closing and restarting the app for you, even if you fold it just a little. :D
I am really quite disappointed this was not taken as an opportunity to make the default form factor smaller. Instead it seems like the folded mode is larger than a pro max, which is insane. I guess I'll just continue with the normal phones.
It seems they are segmenting the market on creator vs consumer between the pro and the duo, and betting the consumers want this form factor.
The pro max is like 6.9” screen and the duo is 5.4”? How is that bigger? Perhaps wider, but the thumb should have better reach and coverage of the screen.
iPhone 18 Pro: 2.83 inches wide
iPhone 18 Pro Max: 3.07 inches wide
iPhone Duo: 3.31 inches wide
my issue with phone sizes has never been their height, and has always been about resting in my palm.
For me, I can never reach the bottom or top. Sideways has never been an issue.
I would like a non-foldable version of this phone. Call it the iPhone Wide or IPhone Mini Wide or whatever.
I would like to buy just the back half please. I’m not even joking. I couldn’t find the exact dimensions but at 5.4” diagonal, that would make it even easier to use one handed than the mini
A $2000 phone. Read the room, Apple. Fuck off.
I was thinking it would be priced cheaper than an 18 pro and an ipad mini
wo,good
$2K is quite a lot.
Hey Siri, what is "jumping the shark"?
9oz
You're going to look very silly taking a call on that.
Total e-waste product.
Everyone knows how badly these things break with moderate use. You’re basically buying with the expectation you’ll have to replace it.
Boring company, lost vision.
Boooring. Apple stopped innovating. They just copy and integrate new things into their phones. Steve Jobs is turning in his grave.
Does this hand look normal?
https://store.storeimages.cdn-apple.com/1/as-images.apple.co...
Whats the point of big screen when we can't even install the app we want. Sideloading works for 7 days and there is artificial limitation of 7-8 App Ids which sucks.
In practice, it'll just be for TikTok (or other shorts) permanently on one side, right?
I guess people spend more money than even this on other addictions
So where's the add-on that adds a thumbstick and some buttons so I can play DS games on it?
$2000 is crazy talk
I see the nano-texture is non-negotiable -- you won't get a clear screen with the Duo. I'm incredibly skeptical of this, and I'll have to check it out once it's in-store to see if that's even something I could tolerate in daily use. When I checked out a Studio Display with nano-texture, I could not stand it because of the shimmery rainbow grain, somewhat like staring through Scotch tape, and the general fuzziness of text. Not sure if that's improved, since Apple doesn't address flaws in their past products.
Annoying that they gave this thing touch id but not the non-folding version.
Restoring Touch ID is one of the things that might make me upgrade my existing iPhone before its time.
Let's wait and see how well this Touch ID works. My alarm bells went off when it was mentioned in conjunction with the Apple Watch also being able to unlock it.
They have a side-button based Touch ID on the iPads already. I've used it there and it works great. Not as nice as the old button iPhone (RIP) but totally usable.
I'm not sure whether this counts substantive enough, but WOW that thing looks absolutely comical, lol
Naturally, I can already see people deeming it to be the most beautiful thing ever though.
Truly, I'll never understand Apple, nor their design language.
Buying this immediately and getting rid of my laptop, going full AI native to do all my work. Never sitting in front of a laptop again.
Congratulations on your self promotion into management.
What I am most interested in is what the fold line looks like and I guess we won’t know until we start getting YouTube reviews.
If there was an iPhone like a pen in form factor (like nokia 7280) I would buy it in a heartbeat.
I don't think the price is that crazy considering how often you use your phone
What other item do you own that you spend so many hours using
Not available in US: https://consumer.huawei.com/my/phones/mate-xt-ultimate-desig...
Seems like a big engineering feat by Apple, but for real, who asked for this?
Edit: Is there that many demand for a foldable iPhone that justifies Apple making such engineering investment?
I think you're right. We're at the point where Apple is sort of out of steam in terms of hardware and software and their products are mature and the company has become more risk averse. They need gimmicks to get people to upgrade and I'm sure we will see more attempts like this in the future. These sorts of devices have limited use cases, like people who are on the road a lot for work or leisure, and of course this appeals to tech enthusiasts or the vanity tech crowd.
It'll be a nice device for some, but I think we're at the stage where device upgrades are no longer going to be a yearly or even biennial thing with all things considered.
Everyone in my family wants one... assuming it works well. We spend a lot of time on our phones, and a lot watching video. This seems like the ideal device for that.
I have no doubts this device will be in demand and sell a ton of units
But what are we even doing? $2000 for a device to watch videos on, to replace the $1200 device you watched videos on last year.
I guess I’m lamenting the fact that none of this amazing technology is actually doing much for us any more. It wasn’t that long ago that every year we would get new devices that actually changed how we did our day-to-day
I think there's plenty of interest, Samsung, Pixel and Motorola are just some of the companies with multiple generations of foldables. Besides enthusiasts, the type of person that might want an iPhone duo is someone that doesn't really use a laptop. The utility of a tablet for media consumption and light productivity with a small footprint is real thing.
The problems besides price (which are still insane) until now where:
- Materials not catching up, things like the older creases, dust ingress, etc.
- Software in Android being hit or miss, specially on with third parties. Apple has the muscle to make apps compatible with the form factor.
- The "standard" foldable aspect ratio sucking ass, the only major exceptions being the Surface Duo, the original Pixel Fold and the recent Galaxy Fold. Passport format is simply better.
>Imagine if Apple dedicated this huge engineering effort onto existing products.
For what? Slab phones are practically solved, the only things that might make a normal iPhone better besides incrementally better camera, battery and processors are not Apple approved. No expandable storage or cheap battery replacements for you. The only place for real advancemnt will be foldables for a while.
Everybody since the Galaxy Fold?
meet more people man
I don't see the appeal of this or the Phone 18 for the matter. I have an (old) iPhone 15 Pro that just works so the upgrade just doesnt seem worth it.
Also I think it would be quite bulky to carry the Duo in a pocket all day long.
I'm looking forward to doing code review on the go on a phone like this! Once a GrapheneOS-compatible brand copies it, that is.
Watching my iOS colleagues tear their hair out with SwiftUI's lack of proper support of foldables for the next... Two years about will be highly entertaining.
bow howdy imma get one for me and the wife. I'm sold.
gonna be expensive but this is a first gen product I could see a ton of use cases for me with.
I want it, but for $2,000, I want to be able to do so much more.
App developers gonna have extra work
No SIM slot. Seems like Apple is only thinking of the US market. Will not be getting the Duo as I will not be able to browse the web outside my home.
Edit: Rate limited so can't reply to the comments. I live in Spain, can't switch to eSIM. I know that the US has 100% integration of eSIM across all providers but outside the US it's not that great. I use eSIM and SIM a lot, have lots of cards and subscriptions. For my main subscription I can't switch to eSIM (yet).
Where do you live that eSIM isn't an option?
Don't your country telcos have esims?
Even mainstream operators in my country have those these days, so you can sign up online without getting to a shop.
Why do you think eSIM is a US only thing? Common in Western Europe and Japan and South Korea and Mexico and Canada and Australia and Thailand as well. China and India are the big outliers, but that can change.
Steve Jobs would roll in his grave due to lack of symmetry in this.
Actually I think he would appreciate the beauty in using 1:1.4, the same as metric paper, to maintain the ratio.
Yeah. It's more Jony Ive who will be rolling in his Bentley.
Having watched the original iPhone event live, bringing the pencil to the iphone would make him roll over in his grave.
The original admonition was against requiring a stylus, not enabling one.
Would probably push the engineers to deliver three-way foldables like the Huawei Mate XT from two years ago. The two-way folding phones are wasting a screen and will go down in history as an abomination. The weird 1:1.4 width:height ratio wouldn't be necessary if you could 3x the screen size instead of only 2x. At 3x, the ratio could be 1:1.73 folded, giving you 3:1.73 unfolded (which equals 1.73:1). 1.73 is much closer to 16:9 (1.77) than 1.4 is.
This is the kind of product the make all out lives better. I mean the pure entertainment value it will bring being able to watch eager Apple fan bois new iPhone Duo screen crack, or the hinges start grinding, or ...
Looking forward to reviews after a few months of use. So far all the foldables I've seen get destroyed quite fast.
They went over their multi-layer design to give it strength and flexibility, and noted over 100 components in the hinge alone. I'll be looking out for JerryRigEverything on YouTube to see how tough it really is!
JerryRigEverything won't tell you how easily the hinge gunks up or cruft gets stuck in places it's not supposed to be or how quickly crease marks show up and how bad they are.
While Apple certainly looked at the competitors to see what problems they had, it's far from a given that Apple has managed to actually solve the durability issues, either, much less on their first attempt.
The presentation went into extra detail about durability w/ a titanium construction, and the iPhone Air was indeed super durable with it. The hinge at-the-least looks like it could survive the dust test.
It's a claim in a marketing presentation though.
Apple also touts ultra durable screens in their presentation and people still shatter them regularly.
"ultra durable" does not mean "indestructible."
Apple has most likely stress tested its engineers to stress test this phone
> So far all the foldables I've seen get destroyed quite fast.
I doubt you did see any from the last few years.
samsung fold lookalike
No SIM slot. So I have to carry a mobile hotspot if I want to browse the internet outside my home.
It’s like Apple forgets there is a world outside the US where eSIM is not a thing.
No, they just don’t care. The TAM in countries that don’t support eSIM for $2500+ phones is probably a rounding error.
C2 doesn't support physical SIMs. eSIM only. Honestly, I can go either way. Physical SIMs are nice but I love the convenience of eSIM and can see people being frustrated over its removal.
I use both around six SIM and eSIM cards but my main phone subscription needs a physical SIM card so I will not be getting the Duo.
Edit: Reply to nomel as I am rate limited
Cheaper than roaming cost. I have eSIMs for countries I frequently visit.
This is Europe. I can do a short walk and cross multiple countries borders. It's nice to have coverage everywhere. I just toggle my eSIMs for that. When I'm out on a boat trip and I pick up a Moroccan signal from across the Strait of Gibraltar I turn on my Moroccan eSIM so I'm not paying €2 per megabyte in roaming cost. When I get cheap gas in Gibraltar I switch on my Gibraltar eSIM and turn off roaming on my main line. When I cross into Portugal I switch to a Spanish provider since they give 15 gigabytes of roaming for free.
As someone who has only ever had one, what's the use of six?
Apple has been doing eSIM for something like 4 years now.
On the international market iPhones have had SIM slots.
Ah. about 30 seconds ago they mentioned in the (still ongoing) keynote they said it was removed to recoup space for internals. I recall the 3.5mm jack removal being motivated along similar lines. I wonder, assuming the space where the SIM slot would've gone was filled with increased battery size, what that delta would in duration. I'm from the US, cursory reading about global eSIM adoption surprised me (only 30% and most of that 30% is in the US vs. my assumption of >50%). What prevents adoption elsewhere? Consumer demand for swapping? Curious to hear your POV on it.
eSIMs give a lot of control back to the carrier. My carrier does not allow transferring eSIMs between phones, but I can trivially move their physical SIM card.
Where is eSIM not a thing?
Currently living in Spain and I’m not able to switch to eSIM on my current plan.
That sounds like typical ISP bullshit where they try to move you on a new plan that’s worse for you by annoying you with minor inconveniences.
unleashes unparallel, unrivaled, totally new, amazing, exciting new ways of interacting with the MOST POW3RFUL!!!!!
then all the photos either what's on the inside it's repeated whats on the outside,
or... and hold your breath... you can show on one side the calendar and on the other side the clock... now you can breath...
Meh, another 2 or 3$k gadget that does the same as the previous one?
if only it ran linux
It runs Unix but somehow I bet that doesn't really change anything.
$2,000 for a fucking phone. We really have collectively lost the plot.
Am I the only one not interested in a folding phone?
cool. now can we please get a 32 inch iMac next?
"Short everything this guy has ever touched ..."
“The largest iPhone display ever”
Gosh I hate that idiotic marketing.
Honestly not even touching on what the thing actually costs on its own, I don’t like the idea of signaling to people so clearly that I had 2k +tax to spend on a cell phone
I’m not always in the best areas so this def comes up for me personally
Outside of that I think I’d give this a shot
This would have been quite impressive just 5 years ago.
See also: Microsoft Surface Duo https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/?msockid=23b070bbb5b76...
Can Apple do anything original?
$2000 and they can’t give you the full display? What stupid design document from 1985 says people want the corners of their screen cut off?
I'm at a loss why anyone thought this asymmetrical design looks good.
2300Euros in Germany. That’s a hard pass.
$2000 are they serious?
Lol $2K. Fuck that.
shit, I'd take this form factor but with a physical keyboard.
I'm still waiting for Apple to rediscover the Psion 3a or 5 format and Applefi it. when they do, I'm in.
I feel bad for iOS developers... Good luck supporting yet another format for your apps
>"breakthrough foldable design" - and what exact part of it is "breakthrough"? Do they have "invisible fold"?
It looks meh. Seems like Apple is following, no longer leading. Samsung feels more polished.
I'm really happy about this new form factor. Things were becoming too conformist where everyone needed to adopt the lowest common denominator in order to fit in. It seemed like anything different was met with significantly more skepticism than curiosity. I embrace informed skepticism but most of it is ignorant. I think people will still be skeptical about the foldable iPhone but mainly out of ignorance of this form factor.
This phone will suck for the concern trolls who are best described as deeply conservative but will try their best pointing out concerns while masquerading as whatever will convince people.
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Apple has almost never been first to anything, but usually goes for "best at it" once it enters the market. I'm assuming you'll see four times as many foldables next year as a bunch of people start to consider it no longer an experiment. And obviously there's a lot of people who simply couldn't consider a foldable before because they were only available with Android.
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Another status symbol has been created.
But once again as I said before [0][1], don't buy the first version of an Apple product.
Wait a sec, you're quoting yourself for proof but you were pretty much objectively wrong in that case? HN unanimously agrees that the M1 was the biggest jump in capabilities and has had many many years of usability since launch.
Except what they didn't tell you was that the software was not optimized and did not work correctly for the M1 and you had to wait it to be ready; especially in the case for developers.
That means, users (especially pro users / developers) lost months of productivity and had to wait for a year for the software to catch up with the hardware.
In that time-frame, you might as well have waited and bought an M2 or above. Nice try though.
As an early adopter there was zero software I used previously that I couldn't run, and I believe most were in a similar boat
So brave of Apple to make the world's first foldable phone
Interesting, but of no use as I can't replace its OS.
I suspect I would get greater value by simply duct-taping two iPhones together into a fold.
The two batteries inside the Duo will allow longer usage.
from the Duo page:
- Up to 31 hours video playback when using the inner display
- Up to 44 hours video playback when using the outer display
You can run one iphone at a time and lap the duo. 64gb iphone SE is going for $140 at best buy right now. I could tape up 10 of them into a jacobs ladder then I'd have 640gb of storage and maybe 10x the battery life of the duo, and money to spare for future expansion iphones.
I was a bit disappointed in these numbers because, despite having two batteries and the outer display being smaller, the Duo still has 1 less hour of video playback on the outer display than the iPhone 18 Pro Max.
Go Apple, bring up the rear!
Can they even do anything new?
Apple has had the "perfect existing technology" business model for FIFTY years and people are still surprised.
I can't argue with that model, but in the past they actually did new and interesting things! The M series processor, the iPhone. Lets hope new CEO who is more of an engineer then the last one was ramps things up.
most of their innovations are in stuff that would be boring to go into detail with. They talked about the advancements in their A series processors (but you left that out), they talk about their complex layering to prevent a crease from forming, they talk about the dynamic audio. Love em or hate em but you cant say they arent doing new things.
Looks like an Android. Couldn't frame it like the iconic notch / dynamic island. Not immediately recognizable. Arrived too late.
Ignoring your other criticism and focusing just on one: How do you justify your claim that it arrived too late? What have people moved onto past foldable phones, in your view?
Less space than a Nomad? Lame?
why is Apple releasing new products when Siri is falling so short compared to the industry. Make Siri amazing would improve every apple product immensely.
The new iOS rebrands Gemini as Siri - and from all accounts of the public beta, it's pretty decent, and an enormous upgrade from the current/old Siri.
I’m sure I read something about NEW SIRI somewhere. Siri isn’t just falling short, it seems to be getting actively and progressively more useless. My HomePod speakers take about 10 seconds to respond now and often get things wrong.
Siri is slowly getting better, but Apple's never been about matching the industry. They've always been about being the best Apple they can be. (They haven't followed this perfectly, but they keep re-learning it's the way, every time someone tries to mess with the formula.)
I’ll not buy a new iPhone until they release a new mini. No, this duo is not worth it.
This will be another flop just like the iPhone Air. $2000 is f**ing crazy. A MacBook Pro is the same price haha. The storage is also shit 256gb??
I wonder if the iPhone Air was something like a pilot or beta test for the Duo. Getting things as thin as possible and shipping it before attaching two of them together. FWIW I feel there's more demand for foldables (Google/Samsung/Microsoft have demonstrated some) than there is for ultra thin phones with the tradeoffs those entail.
Air’s the best iPhone they’ve ever made imo
Ugh; folding screens are so failure prone these things just exacerbate e-waste problems
Would rather ditch my phone size thing and be able to pair a cellular Watch to iPad Mini size thing that also has "50% more screen" than iPhone Max
Gen AI could take telemetry like GPS from Watch and recreate most adventures without need of all the pictures; I don't care if every little thing like a day hike is captured "for real"
Would still hire a photographer for actual meaningful moments like weddings and graduations
What an amazingly soulless way to think
Oh noes; from the other side of an obvious Gulf of Information Assymetry an internet random unaware I am fluent on 3 musical instruments, have won awards for poetry, charcoal drawings and grow 1/4-1/3 of my vegetables each year... believes I have no soul
If you're only capable of reducing the entire comment to a single piece of it you would be wise to sit and meditate on comments first rather than vomit copy pasta opinions; the whole knee jerk copy pasta approach to social media discourse is soulless in its own way
Worse in most ways than every other iPhone, more expensive, gets permanently (sometimes deathly) damaged by fingernails, keys, sand, plastic and literally anything that's harder than about a fingernail. All the supposedly unique usecases can be resolved by a $1 kickstand, a $50 speaker, or a $500 iPad plus a non-foldable phone. You can get a whole MacBook too. So, no thanks.
This is neat but feels like an uninspired shot in the dark. Apple’s been turning from industry leading to people pleasing in recent years. Not that its a bad thing entirely, but something is lost.
I don't think the vibe significantly shifted in a positive way. It seemed like it was going to with Ternus' opening statements, but then it was back to the same vibe. Hard to put into words, but kind of a droning boring safe microsoft-y vibe. Craig Federighi brought more energy for his segment but he sounded almost sarcastic at times. John Srouji is a breath of fresh air. I liked Dr. Desai's vibe in the health section more than the average segment.
A real vibe shift might not even be possible if they don't bring back in-person live presentations. Can't believe they flew all these people in to play them a video. Though seeing how John Ternus' hands were shaking during his demo with ishowspeed, I don't know if they have it in them to go back to live presentations.
And what was the surprise in "surprise and shine" anyway? The name of it?
> Can't believe they flew all these people in to play them a video.
Apple can't afford to have demo problems or presentation glitches anymore. Hence the system that they have now.
It feels like Apple is a company on autopilot, a well oiled money making machine, nothing else.
Remind me if AVP is proof that they have no creative spark or proof that they only do boring stuff that will sell 20m units?
I'd wait before believing no crease. My Z Fold 8 had basically no crease for the first week, after it has a slight crease that hasn't seemed to get any worse in the 3 weeks since. It's only noticeable in dark room with dramatic down lighting at certain angles, or when display is off, but it IS there. There has been some talk of Samsung actually having a better anti-crease solution than they opted to include in the z fold 8. Apparently their display division and mobile division are pretty separate and mobile only gets what they are willing to "pay for". It's possible apple ponied up for the better tech where Samsung mobile did not this year. But I'd still want to wait until people have had the thing for a few weeks and put it through it's paces before I believe any "no crease" claims.
I would wait until there's a display model at an Apple Store, then give it a week while it goes through approximately a bajillion fold/unfold cycles, then see what the crease looks like.
> There is no crease at all!
Like first reply he literally says
> There is sorta one at some slight angles but basically no crease
And someone replied with a picture of it showing the crease.
It's probably fine and you don't notice it during use, but it's not some magic creaseless breakthrough.
I watched this video by Marques Brownlee on the Oppo Find N6 (foldable).. https://youtu.be/eFUB_jL_XcM
It apparantly is a magic creaseless breakthrough... I'm eyeing one, and might put it on the Christmas wishlist...
The Find N6 still has a noticeable crease, it's just much smaller than the average foldable (here's a video of it with the screen off: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/Ss31thoK7xM).
If someone truly can't tolerate their phone screen being in any way perceptibly different from a single flat pane of glass, then they shouldn't buy foldables. It's something you have to get used to or ignore, with any brand. Especially over time as you bend and unbend the phone repeatedly and the crease deepens.
That's how it is on my Z Fold 8, I can really only see it with the screen off.
Somewhere between the 5 and 7 the crease was drastically reduced (except on mine, because the screen protector is delaminating)
They come with one stock, and Samsung says you shouldn't remove it (which doesn't mean you can't, but I'm not brave enough to try). It's like $20 to get it replaced if you live near a Samsung shop
With my wife's folding Razor, there's a factory applied screen protector.
The crease appears after months of use on other phones, so I'm curious what it would look like after a little bit of wear.
Yeah, I'm interested but I'll definitely give it a year or two for other people to discover any durability problems before committing (plus it's missing a lens option compared to the 18 Pro but that's a minor quibble.)
Gotta hold something back for next years magical update!
It does make me wonder if the era of foldable phones is finally here. Apple probably wouldn't bother making one if the tech wasn't there yet, despite the questionable experimentals others have been peddling for years now. Or it's a sign of Apple dropping their standards perhaps.
I mean, their implementation was the best in the industry. The tech wasn't what held it back.
Z fold 8 comes slightly creased out of box, and creases within a week [1]. My 7 was significantly creased out of the box!
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQ8SH1RvYyc
Months is a long time. You're supposed to return your iphone to apple and get a newer one as per your subscription.
Planned Obsolescence strikes again!
Based on rumours Samsung finally cracked the secret on removing creases…iPhone is just the latest model on the market with the technology from them.
That said..I believe I’ve also seen some Chinese models ready claim this.
Disagree on it looking great. It doesn't look like an Apple product. It looks geeky and clumsy. Which I personally don't mind, but absolutely not the sleek one is used to from Apple.
At $2000, I'm not going to be an early adopter this time around. I'm concerned about screen crease/debris ingress, and I'll want to see user reports on how useful it ends up being.
That said, I'm much more intrigued than I expected to be, to the point that I found myself thinking "maybe ...". Kudos to the team. The fold/unfold transitions are really slick, and I like what they've done with the extra side space.
I really do love the idea. It just comes down to the idea that a cell phone shouldn’t cost as much as a run down, but serviceable used car used to cost in a world where inflation hasn’t run rampant.
The solution, of course, is the idea of leverage. 12 easy installments, or just lease it bro which apparently we’re doing now..for cell phones. But this solution isn’t sustainable. I’d have rather Apple not brought it to market it at all.
Agreed. I am excited to see what changes appear. I did enjoy the "One more thing" + smirk bit too.
I loved the handoff that Tim did at the beginning. It was touching
Of course there is a crease
https://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1wbx1wo/there_is_a_cr...
> I think the Duo looks great.
I could not disagree more.
There are 3 ways to fold a phone:
1) The trifold: A phone that folds out into a tablet. (e.g. https://consumer.huawei.com/my/phones/mate-xt-ultimate-desig...)
2) The clam shell: a phone that folds down into a more compact form. (e.g. https://www.jbhifi.com.au/products/samsung-galaxy-z-flip8-5g...)
3) The book: an awkwardly squashed phone that folds out into two awkwardly squashed phones taped together. (e.g. https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/)
The trifold fits in your pocket.
The clamshell fits in small pockets (making it popular for women).
The book in a pocket is just uncomfortable (assuming it fits in at all).
They looked at all the folding phone formats and went with the worst possible one: the one that you can't fit in your pocket comfortably.
Further more, they looked at the worst book fold and decided to associate themselves with it by stealing its name, The S̶u̶r̶f̶a̶c̶e̶ Apple Duo: https://news.microsoft.com/surfaceduo/
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Apple releasing this is exactly what it looks like when there's no one helming the wheel.
Personally I think it looks both incredibly ugly and also really non ergonomic.
I can’t see it being comfortable to hold and type on at all.
I predict the form factor will be gone within two years.
I have a Samsung Z Fold 7. The stock keyboard is split so it's a bit more comfortable to type on with my thumbs. Granted, this phone is the square form factor and not the wide version but I think the concept stays.
My iPad from 2018 still has a full width keyboard so I have to hunt and peck which is annoying. I would hope that apple designs this better for the iPhone duo.
Apple did have a split keyboard for my iPad mini but it seems like they make it hard to access. I don't think there's one on the bigger tablets.
Given that it's basically an iPad at that size, and those have been around for 16 years, I wouldn't be so sure about that.