Outer Wilds, and imperatively its DLC, are transcendent gaming experiences.
Like many, I stopped playing my first time over a frustration with the jet pack and ship movement controls.
I returned later, this time determined to master the movement controls only to find that after mastering them you eventually abandon perfect movement for efficiency anyways and perfect gameplay looks a lot like the initial flailings.
Anytime you get 'stuck' in the game the answer is always, "what have you tried, what can you try instead?" Illuminating the tendency to presuppose an answer, and grow frustrated when it fails repeatedly.
It's certainly a "just play it without looking up anything about it" game. I went in without being spoiled by the "first surprise" that is referenced in this article and was stunned when I figured it out.
Swapping FPS violence for scientific and archaeological discovery, and a wholesome story centered on the social bonds of music make for a truly wonderful gaming experience.
I highly recommend the game to anyone.
> I’ve met plenty of thinky players who reject any help not contained within the game itself—I’ve been that person—but these days, with so much to play, I simply don’t have the heart to ironman a puzzle for hours and hours just to maintain a sense of pride. I’d rather see more of what a game has to offer. Sue me.
I’m not going to sue the author, obviously; but it sounds as though he enjoys puzzle games in a different way and for a different reason from me, and I find it hard to relate to his feelings about them.
If your plan is to cheat as soon as you get stuck, I can’t imagine why you would choose to play a puzzle game at all. For me, what I enjoy about puzzle games is precisely the immense satisfaction that comes from conquering a well-designed puzzle after a struggle.
Pretty simple: the pleasure I get from solving the puzzle is not always higher than the pain of trying to solve it. There is a limit and it's different for everybody.
When I do the New York Times crossword too, I'll try to figure it out without hints. If no progress for 10-20 minutes, I'm opening google. I enjoy it more this way.
I don't think it's a matter of different pain thresholds - for us who are into those kinds of games the struggle is part of the enjoyment. Just like some people like doing extreme sports or other hard activities and some prefer to scroll through tiktok for dopamine hits.
There has to be a point when the struggle is no longer enjoyalble, right? Outer Wilds had a puzzle that I was struggling hard with (for those who've played: the jellyfish one), and I had felt I did every permutation of things to complete it, but nothing worked. I only "figured it out" from a friend giving progressively heavier hints; and when I did I concluded I could not have completed the game at all without being nearly told.
Have you never had a puzzle like that? Where the "struggle" would entail sitting there staring at the puzzle with 0 clue for a few hours? A majority of puzzle games I've played have 1 or 2 of these, and they aren't even bad games.
It's hard to have a universal philosophy for puzzles - or depends a lot on how much you trust the designer. There are lots of tedious or unfair puzzles, which ruins the experience or expectations when you encounter a well designed puzzle.
Is it cheating, though? I find it is more like bringing the games difficulty down to an acceptable level. I enjoy puzzle games, but often the puzzles boil down to combining everything in your inventory with everything in the game world (in LucasArts terms). That can simply be unfun for some of us in a game we otherwise enjoy. A variant of this is that I would e.g. enjoy open world-ish action combat fantasy games, but I really do not find the Souls like loop of git gud compelling at all, so I... basically don't play these games. But AA or AAA fantasy action games with this kind of presentation are (at the moment) basically only Souls like, so... yeah, great. At least for puzzle games I can "cheat" if one of the puzzles is simply illogical for my way of thinking, so I can skip over that part and go back to enjoying the rest of the game...
I don't think I've encountered that style of inventory-combining problem since the frustrations of Discworld, are there many modern games in that style?
When I think of puzzle games I think mostly of geometric reasoning problems like The Talos Principle and The Witness.
> Is it cheating, though?
Yes?
> I find it is more like bringing the games difficulty down to an acceptable level.
Yes, that's what cheating usually does? Apart from the extinct sub-genre of cheats like big head mode.
> Apart from the extinct sub-genre of cheats like big head mode.
Those are just easter eggs, which are not extinct.
> I enjoy puzzle games, but often the puzzles boil down to combining everything in your inventory with everything in the game world (in LucasArts terms).
Except they usually don't require you to do that. The so-called "moon logic" in those games might not follow the rules of our world but it is still a kind of logic that you can master nonetheless.
The AAA game industry as a whole has encouraged this mentality in gamers. They make games which are basically movies that you have to put a bit of work into to watch. The concept of virtuous struggle and overcoming challenge -- which used to be the default in arcade games or consoles like the NES -- has been relegated to niche categories.
I agree with you though. The idea of having my sudoku puzzle spoiled for me by giving me a critical digit seems totally alien. They might as well be the kid blurting out answers in math class, depriving everyone else of learning. Of course many kids in the class were happy to have the "freebies" even though it contributed to lack of skills down the road.
I think this is why you have to be playing a few puzzle games "at the same time" - so when you get blocked/stuck in one, you can work on another.
I will admit that sometimes once I figure out "the trick" to the puzzle, I'll cheat and grab the solution rather than working it out by hand.
A little different than what you're saying, but you reminded me of an experience I had with Inside - which I enjoyed a lot overall, but -
There were a number of puzzles involving pushing boxes around, and something that really irritated me was that I would understand the solution but then have to go implement it by moving around and doing the pushing with somewhat clunky controls.
It was sort of interesting from a gameplay perspective - that feeling of "eureka" followed by "dammit, now I've gotta do this schlep work".
But like for games like the witness, there are key insights that would be a huge bummer to get spoiled on
I have a limit how much time I’ll spend on a puzzle. So if it exceeds that I don’t mind cheating to get to the next part.
My limit might be lower than yours but I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong having a limit that means you shouldn’t play puzzle games.
I looked up the answer to some of the bird noise puzzles in the witness because I figured out (correctly) the concept, which was fairly obvious, but the actual noises in some of them were impossible to discern for me. that area was unique in that it required some actual skill beyond thinking about the puzzle
some of the harder ones I did screenshot and overlay in Inkscape and draw out the candidate shapes, which I guess isn't really cheating?
I like digging into well designed puzzles and figuring them out, but also - like the author, I like interacting with friends around puzzles and the group dynamic and power of bouncing things off of each other, as well as the reduced likelihood of stupid blind spots.
When I played through Blue Prince, I had an important area of the game undiscovered for in game weeks because I just didn't notice a path that was not meant to be hidden. It was in an area that it made no sense for me to further explore because it was challenging to get to and seemed to have nothing else to offer (I presumed until I had unlocked something further in the game). It was a big relief when I was talking through my progress with a friend who was further along than I, and they prompted me to go back and look again.
I had a very similar issue with Chants of Sennaar (another incredible game), where there were exactly 3 words I was missing, I knew what they were, but couldn't find them. I kept going anyway and found one (by a different method than usual), then eventually after scouring the whole map twice had to look it up and there was just a stairs down the edge of one section that I didn't see at all, but which also didn't respond to the "hint" button that normally shows you any direction you can go or thing you can interact with.
Also very glad I looked up the solution for the Obelisk puzzle in Fez as there was no way I was getting that (seemingly incredibly contrived, but apparently not correctly solved yet) solution.
An excellent 3 part video from Elyot Grant [0] introduced me to the term "fiero" for this conquering after a struggle, in contrast to a simple "aha/eureka". The difference being one is transmissible, the other is not. Thought it was a nice distinction. Highly recommend the videos!
[0] Part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCHciE9CYfA
I disagree with the author that there’s no automated solution for getting spoiler-free help. I have found ChatGPT excellent for getting minor help without spoilers while playing Blue Prince. I can ask it things like “I’m playing Blue Prince and I want to avoid all spoilers. <question>? Use search. Answer only ‘yes’ / ‘no’ / ‘clarification needed’.”
Perhaps one difference between the author and me is that I usually have closed-ended questions rather than open-ended questions like “give me a minimal clue that’s helpful but not obvious”, for which I’d trust ChatGPT far less.
The Reddit community of Outer Wilds maintains an extremely comprehensive list of recommendations, in the style of "if you liked this aspect of the game, try these other games":
https://www.reddit.com/r/outerwilds/wiki/index/gamerecs
I can vouch for Outer Wilds and Tunic being masterpieces, with Blue Prince getting a B+ from me.
Tunic's true ending is unfairly difficult to find. Fun, and obviously attainable, but unfair.
It asks for a very different skill level than Outer Wilds, for sure.
On the other hand, it gets extra points for the in-game manual booklet. The mechanics, the metaphor, and the gorgeous execution should be required material in game design classes.
I took something away from this article. While I enjoyed Blue Prince very much even though I played it alone, the surprisingly most enjoyable aspect of the game came externally - it was (and is) following my friends' journey through the game and being there to give them custom made consensual spoiler-free, hints when they needed. Some times simply being told you're barking up a very wrong tree or that you don't have enough information yet is exactly what you need to not get burnt out. I keep wondering if there's a way to have that baked into the game. Something to brainstorm.
Really glad they brought up Outer Wilds -- it's exactly the sort of game where the tiniest detail is a spoiler. Knowledge discovery's the game, so any piece of information about the game that doesn't need to be discovered is like cutting ahead to the next chapter in a game. Like playing on someone else's game file.
Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
> Wish someone would wipe my memories of that game so I can play it again.
Felt the same for years, now I am doing a new playthrough.
I figured, of course I know the solution to the puzzle, but I am hard pressed to remember all the details of how I uncovered that answer, and I know that you can uncover the clues in nearly any order so I know this playthrough will be new in its own way.
And I miss the world, and the gameplay.
A mini version of this in Mario Maker (and thus MM2 which is currently playable) is the Knowledge Check Point.
Mario Maker 2 has a "Check Point" system where the software remembers whether Mario has reached one of two "Check Points" in the course and if so resets Mario to that point if/when he dies. You can only have zero, one or two such "Check Points". This leads to two important phenomena
1. Antis. A Soft Lock is a situation where Mario can't win, but also can't die, this is extremely frustrating because the player must start over, losing any progress. A good course designer ensures this never happens. But a twisted course designer does so by making it possible yet extremely difficult to die in this situation, thus the art of the "Anti-Soft-Lock" or just "Anti". The player is tricked into entering a situation in which they must complete some very difficult tasks, not to win but just to die and keep playing from a check point they've reached.
2. Knowledge Check Points. With only two CPs, a really elaborate course must either stretch considerably between the CPs, meaning players who die between CPs must re-do a lot of work and that's annoying OR invent a way to re-use them. There are tricks to re-use exactly two CPs plus the "Red Coins" from Mario which are kept when Mario dies, but a cleverer trick is to just have the player learn something which changes how they will behave.
My favourite KCP is an MM2 level where the player can't win... until they realise there's a way to obtain an important power up right at the start of the course, which then changes how they tackle everything else and opens up a route to success. The dead end you'd reach if you don't know about this, reveals that hidden power up.
Hello fellow MM troll level enjoyer. :) perhaps we have mutual friends
I am not in any trust shapes whatsoever, I'm just another person who was overjoyed to see that Geek did a fundraiser :)
The strategy I see with the most success in online communities is something to the effect of, "If it appears in the trailer, or what is very obviously the earlygame tutorial area, it's basically fair game. Otherwise use spoiler tags." Some puzzle games are best experienced entirely unspoiled (Outer Wilds) and others benefit from sortof a layered hints approach.
Steam guides for Blue Prince are fantastic about this, and were extremely welcome to me once the RNG nature of the game stopped being exciting and started being a tedious obstacle. There's nothing quite like needing to spend several real world hours to try a puzzle solution that may be a complete waste of time, simply because the game doesn't really like to spawn the needed rooms (in an acceptable configuration) very often.
I really really love both Outer Wilds and the DLC and think the reddit community, when asked, does a great job of providing advice or tips for specific situations without revealing too much.
Has anyone played Bean and Nothingness? Great game, but also a great Discord server for this problem, with lots of norms around spoiling. I've been disappointed in some board gaming forums moving to Discord (because it's hard to search for old knowledge), but for puzzle video games it's almost ideal.
And there's also Tunic, that is both a zelda-like action RPG and and information game !
So it's still very fun to replay it with a randomizer for example.
Tunic is probably my favorite game that has multiple "Aha!" moments when all the hints and puzzles so far suddenly click in a different way.
Come to r/myst. I think we do alright. It's true that it's its own skill though. You have to learn to refer to things in vague terms at least.
If you like Myst, try the RHEM series. Not quite as compelling a setting/story (though that's praise of Myst far more than any put down on RHEM), much, much better puzzles, with the same "Slideshow of 3D rendered environments" presentation.
If you like Myst, try Blue Prince.
Look, 90s era point and click games are tonnes of fun, but also many of them were designed by sadists. Sue me if I look up a GameFAQs walkthrough.
The utter inanity of asking, ‘how do you talk about puzzle games when spoilers are devastating’ and then spoiling the supposedly best game in the genre in the next friggin paragraph is driving me absolutely wild.
That game is 7 years old.
But it seems to me spoilers are mostly for narrative puzzle games, or secret twist / riddle puzzle games. There are a lot of puzzle games where you either can't look up the solution (games like Demon Bluff) or where looking up the solution/hints mostly spoils one level at worst (e.g. Baba is You).
I've found LLMs are quite good for tailored game hints where you don't want more of the story or puzzle ruined. Rather than looking up walkthroughs and hoping you don't accidentally digest something you didn't mean to, you can ask the LLM very specific questions and ask it to only answer with very specific answers.
I'm not someone who uses LLMs heavily, but I've found this kind of usecase suited my needs very nicely.
> We live in a time where innocently surfing the web can result in seeing a single screenshot and completely ruining a game
A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with.
> Because information equals progress in this genre, there’s typically no way to brute force the path forward whenever you find yourself truly stuck.
Except that is almost always possible - games by their very nature are usually very restricted in what you can do which makes exploration of all possible options possible. But usually better would be trying to reason about the problem. Looking up outside help is and has always been equivalent to giving up - which is fine if you don't want to solve the puzzle but definitely not needed to progress if you are patient.
> A game where seeing a single screenshot ruins the experience wasn't very substantial to begin with.
I don't think that follows at all, I'm currently working through Blue Prince and the way in which that game gives you information later on which completely recontextualizes things you have encountered earlier makes it so that a screenshot of something could definitely rob you of experiencing that moment, which is a big part of the joy of that game.
That is true, but, one of the lovely things about Blue Prince is that there's a lot of it so it's very difficult to spoil much of it in one screenshot.
In terms of things I'd say to encourage someone to play without spoilers, I think I'd focus on mechanics, like:
1. The game has depth to its locations that shows up on repeated visits. Expect to return with better tools/information to see new things. Shortcuts will reveal themselves over time.
2. There is an in-game tool that takes notes for you, hints at undiscovered content, and can provide on-screen waypoints to help you navigate.
3. Don't be too worried about your (avatar's) personal safety, or about rushing. Later there may be times where both might matter for your goals, but the game is designed to support trial-and-error.
One thing to note too is the game can be beaten in the first 10-15 minutes or so without any glitches. You just need to have figured out the grand puzzle of the game. I found that really unique and interesting, like the solution was always available to me but the block was my knowledge of the world, not mechanics or something like an unlockable skill or level.
2. Yes! The automatic notes are perfect for getting back on track without spoilers. "There is more to explore here."
I know for some people it removes a sense of wonder and mystery, but as a completionist sort, I really appreciate "you found everything nearby" indicators. It means the game/designer respects my time as a human with (a few) other things to do everyday.
I understand why this was frustrating, but the problem is that what you wanted conflicts with the game design. Random drafting is crucial to Blue Prince's design - which means early on when you have few resources and no knowledge you won't be able to "focus my attention" because the draft will override your preferences. This isn't an issue for a late game player, but of course you can't get there.
FWIW while I enjoyed watching other people play Outer Wilds, I found the fine control needed too frustrating. I might decide to investigate part of Brittle Hollow, travel there, fall into the hole, painstakingly get back, fall in again, reset, new day. That's exactly the same frustration you had, but for a different reason and as a result I was often unable to tell which of three things was true:
1. That cannot be done, it's an important fact about Outer Wilds, a revelation
2. I can't do that, I'm incompetent. Sucks to be me. Maybe try again?
3. That cannot be done, whoops, game engine limitation, unimportant.
I never had this in Blue Prince and so I was much better able to enjoy both the game itself and watching others play after I was done (Atelier etc.)
P.S.: And if you're playing on a PC, know that there is one section of the game where you need to use your ship thrusters so very gently that it almost requires you to to use a controller.
Your username checks out!
As someone who’s played a lot of video games, very few gameshave come close to the experience that was Outer Wilds.
Textbook definition of a game I wish I could forget so I could play again for the first time.
I didn't really get it, and the problem with these games is that you can't ask, because you might spoil the surprise. The controls were fine, even fun, but I just wasn't really captivated by the story.
I don't know if I'm missing something that would make the game click for me, or if I just won't enjoy it. I can't ask anyone, because I'll ruin it if I am actually missing something.
Pretty good youtube video that may help. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wHwZd53CyLc
Thank you!
Nowadays you can ask LLM (Gemini is great for this), specifically for a spoiler-free clue
Hm it wasn't so much that I got stuck, I more didn't really enjoy the genre, but maybe I did miss something. Asking the LLM is a great idea, thanks!
I wasn’t really a fan, didn’t like the gameplay loop.
A puzzle game I liked 100x more is “Baba is You”. Should be very appealing to programmers.
Baba is You is literally a sokoban for software engineers, highly recommended. It's quite difficult though.
Worth checking out Nimi's Garden map pack too, could be called Baba is You 2 really.
After this comment I immediately closed my eyes and stuck my fingers in my ears (and added the game to my wishlist). I appreciate the rec, it looks great.
is it really a puzzle game? I recently dragged myself through The Witness finally and found it to be mostly not that interesting, most puzzle games have bounced off me similarly.
Outer Wilds, though, what a game. but it felt more like exploring in BotW, even although there is obviously no combat... kinda? there is sort of "combat" in one of the planets, although the only thing that you can do is lose. hmm, that planet is like BotW, but you have 3 hearts and a stick, and every enemy is a Lynel.
Yeah I generally enjoy puzzle games and didn't find Outer Wilds very good from that perspective. And it had some surprisingly intensive dexterity requirements in sections of the game that make it impossible to progress without looking up spoilers, and I'm not talking about the spaceship controls.
And when I finally put the game down and just watched through the rest on Youtube, like, I could see what the game was getting at and why people would be fascinated by it but it was by no means life-changing unless you've had a very boring life.
It isn't very meaningful to assert your arbitrary threshold for "life-changing" as a criteria to measure one's life. It is quite distracting as a closer to an otherwise thoughtful reply.
What constitutes life-changing and what constitutes intensive dexterity will subjectively vary by person based on their skills and tastes.
I didn't find the game to require much dexterity, but I did find it to have interest world design and ideas that have stuck with me for years.
It is not Hollow Knight, but I recall there were a few parts that required quite a bit more skilled platforming than the game theme would imply.
If nothing else, there are some sections which have somewhat tight time windows which can put a lot of tension into a puzzle game. Resetting an attempt to a failed set piece might take several minutes, adding to the frustration.
Have you tried the Talos Principle (and it sequel)? I also didn't like The Witness but the Talos Principle games are some of my favourites
The "first surprise" is why I tell people "Just play this game, and don't look up anything about it!".
The two games the article has pictures of games are IMO everyone who plays games should play; they are two of the best of all time.
I stopped reading when he started naming things in Outer Wilds. (Perhaps ironic, considering the title.)
What are the games you're recommending?
It is insane to me that they ask that question in the title of the article and then go on to spoil the big first surprise.
“How do we talk to people about these games without spoiling it for them? Oh, I know I will spoil it for everybody who reads this article!!!
“It’s one of my favorite in the genre (maybe the best) and it requires a level of secrecy because it takes away the wow factor if you learn details about it early, but ANYWAYS here’s some details about it!!!!!!!!”
Outer Wilds and Blue Prince
I really should get back to outer wilds. I like you bounced off of it because of the controls, and I keep meaning to go back because people I have faith in swear by it. I know the most basic secret you learn incredibly early, but that's the only 'spoiler' I know.
Do it! You’ll likely thank us later.
The controls are wonky but it’s not a AAA title, so there are things about it that are a little rough for sure.
I guess this is the one time maybe reading the comments first saved me of a spoiler I didn't want to be exposed to, so thank you :) Guess I finally need to give it a try before it get accidentally spoiled for me.
Controls were great, didn't see whatever it is that people love about the story, and the game loop made me quit.
The movement wasn't too big an issue for me, but that's probably because I've played Kerbal Space Program, in which moving around in space is a pretty steep learning curve.
Anyway, that aside, it's a great game, you get a board where you can see everything you've discovered, whether you missed anything important, and links to other things you can pursue still. Or just go to a random planet / place of interest.
I’ve played the main game but never the DLC. Is it worth going back and running through again?
I didn’t find the DLC quite as good as the OG however the storyline is excellent, and I actually liked most of the puzzles; I say actually because the puzzles are its most often critiqued part.
Yes!
Introduces what is easily my favorite planet, and a completely new story of nearly identical length.
New characters, new tools, new mechanics, new puzzles. Same feel (except narratively its a bit more spoopy). It's like a selfquel.
(Also, worth noting that if you start a new game, you can just go straight to playing the DLC content without having to replay or complete the base game)
I think it is worth knowing that the spookiness isn't for everybody and is the part most likely to turn some players off. The game offers features to make it as mild as possible without destroying their narrative intent, but it is definitely there.
If you know that you frighten easily and don't react well to it - like maybe you went in a haunted house ride once and then couldn't sleep for a week, this might not be your jam and that's OK.
It's not a skill issue, the game has been conceived so that if you scare easily but keep playing you can work around the issue and succeed. But obviously if after that initial moment of terror you just can't face playing any more that's not a good purchase.
(Light spoilers) Supposedly the design intent was that you're not supposed to stealth in the dark much at all! It's really not obvious though, so it's a bit of a failure of design in that particular aspect. Interview with a dev: https://medium.com/@cordialkobold/interview-with-alex-beachu...
Still spooky atmosphere for sure.
Yeah, it ties up the game perfectly
To counter-balance the positive comments - I've found the DLC dissapointing. It replaces fun of trial and error with hours of boring walking in the dark and cheap horror elements. The best part is probably the "surprise" section, but the rest is just meh.