Porsche sold more electrified cars in Europe in 2025 than pure gas-powered cars

I strongly doubt any current car will stand longevity of those cars. The maintenance entry cost of anything with integrated electronic is just several order of magnitude in complexity.

Ain't gonna be any diesel in the future. Peak oil has passed, now it's only going downhill.

Feels bad faith to shit on people from your ivory tower, just because they can't afford to ditch their reliable beaters and buy a new car. Have you seen wage growth vs car price increases lately? Not everyone is on a remote six figure US tech job. Try to view and judge things from outside your bubble as well.

I'd also dump my ol reliable ICE car that's now probably worth less than a fancy electric bicycle, if someone just gave me an EV for free ;)

But since I'm poor and can't afford EV prices with decent range, nor can I afford a home with a parking place with charger, then ICE it is. European here btw, not american.

Until very recently, tariffs on American cars sold in China were much higher than vice-versa. The new US tariffs were an attempt to even the playing field.

I think most people would agree that no tariffs would be good, but China is more protectionist than any other major economy, including recent changes in US policy.

Interesting that Canada agreed to break with the US on EV tariffs.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46648778

It's limited but I feel like Canada aligning themselves at all with China over the US is an interesting development.

This is the outcome when your corporations bow down to wall Street. Tax payers money is just used to prop up their private profits and without exposing them to the actual competition. Short term profit seeking. Who foots the bill, the US tax payer who have to pay for the corporate profits and drive overpriced underperforming vehicles.

Protecting automakers can be considered a vital business for national security. This is not good for consumers, but relying on China for everything also carries many risks.

The Ioniq 5N is extremely funny on paper. It's not wildly expensive, nor is it greatly modified from stock, but the engineers decided to just completely overspec the torque on what is otherwise an ordinary family car. So you get a 0-60 time of about three seconds.

I'm slightly surprised there aren't more cheap electric "hot hatches", but I think that market is dead even in ICE cars - young people don't have much free cash, aren't interested, and the insurers won't let them either.

And that’s based on a family car platform—wait until you drive something more purpose-built. Take a look at the Renault 5 Turbo E, the work-in-progress electric A110 and 718, or the more affordable SC01. Fun EVs are definitely coming in the next 5 to 10 years.

Automobile buyers who buy American or European cars are more likely to be auto enthusiasts.

Then there's the utility / practical / recreational crowd who goes for SUVs and pickup trucks.

Those whose primary aim is utility are already in (non-EU) foreign markets or used. Those are invisible to new-car US/EU sales.

It's a classic Innovators Dilemma dynamic (Clayton Christensen), where chasing higher-end market niches torpedoes development of disruptive tech within the same firm.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Innovator%27s_Dilemma>

> I can 100% confidently say the average US buyer is not an auto enthusiast. Cars are appliances to the vast majority of people here.

Only like 1-2% of new cars are manual transmission here. A lot of the enthusiast market complains that everything is an automatic these days, even high end sports cars.

Auto enthusiasts no, but cars are definitely not appliances in the US.

Cars are a way people mark their social status - whether they will admit it or not. A big, luxurious SUV with a small mountain of space, the latest tech, etc is not an 'appliance'. It's a luxury people are choosing to buy.

The difference is in priorities. Americans wanted a very different kind of car than China is/was making.

They are in the sense that most of them are buying cars that represent their identity. For example nearly every pick up truck is an "auto enthusiast", because almost none of them are used for their primary purpose more than a few times mes a year.

Many Americans base their identity off that appliance though, buying big trucks to drive around the suburbs and commute in. It needs to go vroom, so no e trucks allowed. I'd say it's more like a form of narcissism than enthusiasm.

Explain to me why I should want an electric car?

I have a lot of ICEs - they are collectors items I keep in the shed unless there is a parade. My EVs are the daily drivers, not as fun, but more practical.

The above isn't quite true - there are some "daily" ICEs yet because EVs aren't in all niches and I don't replace things instantly even if they were. The idea is the future that is coming closer and closer to reality.

You are wrong - it is like holding onto horses because cars require carrying a mechanic to get anywhere. BEVs aren’t ready for every use and every place and every one in the US by at least a decade, so keeping an ICE / buying one today is the pragmatic choice.

>>So what is more practical, charging your car overnight without an electric plug or going to the gas station for a few minutes?

100x charging your car overnight with a plug. I don't think people who don't own an EV realize how great that is. Imagine if your petrol car magically got refilled with fuel every single night - add up all of those "few minutes" spent at a petrol station over your lifetime, and realize how much time you're getting back.

>> people are living in centuries old houses converted into high density condos, there are no garages

And yeah, that's a problem everywhere, not just in Portugal. Here in the UK a lot of people wouldn't have anywhere to charge at home.

You use kerbside charging. Unlike petrol, electricity comes to you.

I do have a garage and 'fuel' is half the cost of my previous, smaller ICE. We're considering solar power to get it practically free.

There's some nicer differences like leaving the air-conditioning on constantly because there's no pollution and it's also practically free. It's nice to have a giant battery instead of requiring an engine to constantly recharge it to run the electronics.

With batteries reaching 800-1000km per charge and most people doing around 30km a day of driving (way less for people living in dense areas), you basically only need to charge your car once every two weeks.

I have a 2020 Fiat 500 Abarth, and it is absolutely perfect: There is a screen (I think 7") for Android Auto/CarPlay/radio/nav, and every single other function in the car has a physical button. It is also absolutely gorgeous - pinnacle of design, IMO

From this year all EU cars will have physical buttons for heater controls, media etc.

Not sure why would you think EU automakers fail at making modern cars, also, you're generalizing 40+ car automakers in one basket.

Sure, but compared to an era when horses were used as a practical form of transport the number is effectively zero. Horses are a novelty that wealthy people play with. ICE cars will go the same way.

Maybe you’re the kind of person who believes the glass is always full if you can make the glass arbitrarily small.

Maybe it's naive of me, but I think the enthusiast will still have a place in the future, just as they can now own cars without 3-point seatbelts, catalytic converters, traction control, ABS, airbags, crumple zones, etc. all of which have been mandated for many decades.

The corner is turning on this, with e.g. the Renault 5 EV being extremely popular: https://bestsellingcarsblog.com/2026/01/france-full-year-202...

I've test driven one, fun little car, decent provision of some non-touchscreen controls.

Ironically I think Tesla really opened up the EV market at all in the West by starting as a luxury option and working downwards. People don't want to feel they're taking a "hair shirt" option. "EVs are for rich people" has probably sold more cars than "EVs are for poor people" messaging would have.

The VW ID4 is winning the middle of the range family SUV market: https://electrek.co/2025/02/28/volkswagen-id-4-best-selling-...

It's not to my taste that bonnet lines have got higher, SUV style, but it appears to be what the public wants to buy.

> Remember when the U.S. deeply feared Japan's rapidly growing economy

They DID fear them and took action to gimp their industry. Read the Plaza Accord and the aftermath to the Japanese economy.

While that is true, the new car market has narrowed to the point where most of the buyers want something overpowered for their money. The most popular cars are actually buying these when they are 10+ years old.

(I śaw recently that the USA market is about 16M cars.. this would have been low figure years ago. But they are barely selling 'basic commuter cars'.)

I guess it depends on how you define car enthusiast.

A lot of Americans spend far more on their vehicle than they need to and so I would classify them as enthusiasts even if they couldn't tell you how many cylinders their engine has.

It's hard to get basic commuter without overload of tech these days

Aren't the most popular "cars" in the US actually SUVs and light trucks?

Comparing renting a new type of car when you have to figure everything out for 2 days then return it, to owning a car, where you also have to figure everything out, but only for the first days, not the 600 days afterwards, is not really comparable.

Also, when you own a car you charge it at home and work, so you don't really wait for the car to charge very often.

And the next time you rent a car, it will be a bit simpler as you have done it once before. And even quicker/simpler the time after that etc.

This is the equivalent of setting up a developer environment for charging a car. Once you have a car that's working, and you know how to connect to the app and charge it, almost all these problems go away. If you're in a place that has a lot of public chargers near your destination that you're already going to, then it's even easier, and it just becomes trivial.

That being said, I don't think I would want to rent a car that didn't have a place to charge it or a very easy-to-use fast charger nearby.

> jumping through phone app hoops

The very idea you effectively need a mobile phone to charge your car is mind boggling. The mess of proprietary charging networks and registrations is needless complexity that puts people off hiring (and ownership) of EVs.

For rentals I get that. We own 2 EVs and a charger at home. Easiest driving experience ever. We just plug it in.

Where are you based?

Here is a different narrative: https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/1qh5kdg/us_pres...

The marketers of the same companies that aren't trying to sell them small, cheap, practical EVs and want everyone to pay for high margin trucks and SUVs.

Unions in countries like Germany and France are much more powerful. Especially VW is extremely unionized, half of the seats on the Supervisory Board are allocated to worker representatives. These employee representatives are elected or selected by the workers (usually via union and works council processes), so VW employees indirectly influence board decisions through these seats.

> And I think the difference is going to be apparent 15-20 years from now when new parts are needed for these models.

Perhaps unstated, but this is going to be like trying to find parts for my Nokia 3210 (current age: 27). EVs are still in the "rapid improvement" phase, and by the time the battery warranty expires (5-7 years) the cars available on the current market will be significantly better in all respects.

On the other hand, they just have far fewer "parts" in the first place. Early indication is very good for lifetimes of the non-battery parts.

I expect the median EV of today to have a shorter life than a corresponding ICE, but the EV of 10 years time to have a much longer one. Which is going to make all the stupid issues around infotainment and subscription issues more acute.

The average age of all cars on UK roads has just hit 10 years: https://www.racfoundation.org/media-centre/average-car-in-th... ; EVs skew young because they're new.

No EV is going to run 20 years from now unless replacing batteries will start costing significantly less.

And Chinese brands are more than willing to tank the prices to absorb those tariffs

Toyota hybrids are full hybrids however, not mild hybrids like other manufactures, so all you really need is a bigger battery and charger. My 10 year old RAV4 Hybrid (not plug-in) can deliver 160kW just from the electric motors, without the engine. That's 3x a Dacia Spring. They have the technology for motors and control electronics, and they know it works long term without issues.

Most of the European EVs are basically just electric city cars, unable to drive long ranges due to small batteries and limited fast charging. And most of them after 100,000km will need a new battery. Doesn't really fit in with Toyota's 'long term reliability' stance.

I can't blame Toyota for waiting for the technology to mature before they go all in on EVs. Plus they do have the bz4x / RX which are full EVs you can buy today.

I've been pondering this, especially given that Japan is not an oil-producing country, and concluded: it's the internal politics of the engine group.

That is, the people who design engines and run the engines division have sufficient heft within the organization that they can prevent a good car being made that doesn't have an engine in it.

It's sort of worked out for them as they have a big niche in the taxi market, and other high milage users who've not taken the EV plunge yet. If you want the most efficient vehicle that still uses petrol, buy a Toyota.

The "greige" colour appalls me. Not only does it look like primer, it looks like the grey of old PC cases under a brown of smoke. Either basic white or basic black would be better. Or classic metallic silver.

Other than price, in what ways are they streets ahead? I’m a bit of an EV nerd and that would not be my assessment at all. Unfortunately for Western manufacturers price/volume is probably the most important thing right now, so they are still in serious trouble.

I dont drive one of their EV's, but the 20+ year veteran Diesel Engineer who took my DPF filter complaint escalation does and thats really all I need to know. After I run my current vehicle into the ground, that will probably be next.

I have ridden in a BYD and it was the opposite experience: excellent suspension, unusually smooth ride, great seats. A few things on the dashboard did look a bit tacky. But overall, massive difference from where Chinese cars were even 5 years ago.

Replying from a BYD now. I wish HN could attach photos.

It's literally quieter than a bicycle, except for a whirring when the car powers up. We've come across people and animals standing in the middle of the road because they didn't realize the car was right behind them.

Soundproofing is good too. It comes with karaoke built in and it's more sound proof than many karaoke rooms.

Suspension is much better than my previous car but I'll reserve judgement until it's also 5 years old.

Seats are comfortable enough to sleep in - some people are even using it as an alternative to a hotel, because you can keep the air-conditioning on all night and the seats go all the way down to a horizontal position. There's a window up top so you can watch the stars at night too.

Also the seats have air-conditioning in case your back is hot too.

Havent ridden in a BYD, but I absolutely abhor the Tesla interior, its like riding around in a rickety iPad.

BYD's seem (super subjective) to make less road noise outside of the vehicle. I still get snuck up on by them in car parks, but I have tuned in to the Tesla hum and can hear them a while off.

Tesla has shown that you can buy usd100K cars with dubious quality and terrible materials.

That makes it easier for brands who sell cheaper models imho. It is all about status, and right now having an EV and a fricking 17" TV on the dashboard trumps everything else.

I think you are a few years out of date. Certainly they used to be not great. They are way better now.

Most of what you’re describing applies to Teslas too, tho.

Well, China is not accepting/going through a Plaza Accord kind of an agreement. So history might not replay itself this time.

Yes I remember, too. The crucial difference is that Japan's population is one third of the US while China's is 4 times the US (and 3x the EU).

Basically Japan never had the numbers to "take over the world" while China has them even if natality is way down.

If China had the same clout relative to population as Japan, Germany, Korea, or the US it would dwarf everyone else, and that's why the US are in a panic about China.

And funny thing, all three countries car industries were started by the USA.

Most practical advancements in robotics have been in and will be in highly specialized systems. Generalized robots are still mostly experimental.

The issue is not actual quality, it’s perceived quality. Chinese companies will fight decades of history and negative perception to reach top of the market consumers, a segment obsessed with perception.

it took Japan about 25 years of very directed industrial strategy to take the "made in Japan" label from indicating junk to the average American, to indicating a premium/reliable product. China might get there in even less than 25 years but you'll probably still find people holding onto old "chinesium" beliefs long after they should

From what I've heard, the quality is pretty good. The problem is when something breaks, you can be waiting for (sometimes very expensive) parts for months while not being able to use your car.

> I'm trying really hard to buy European made products and to use European services where possible.

European companies are trying even harder to outsource to China.

In the past months I’ve seen an increase and it feels like almost everything is made in China, from books to Christmas trinkets to clothes and kitchen utensils, it’s a pain the ass to find locally produced goods.

This has a lot to do with the energy crisis triggered by decoupling from Russia, which was never properly put into context and evaluated from an economical perspective.

In the US for example, most of the US brands are already made in China. They will copy the tooling and put a different brand name on it and you'll have a tool of the same quality for way less cost.

Simply put China is an unrecognized superpower at this point with the investments they've already made. The amount of infrastructure they've built in a decade dwarfs what the West has done in decades.

>When Americans discover again how crappy their cars are compared to what's >available elsewhere, like we did with Japan

No, that's not what happened. Japanese manufacturers made cars in the US, to match US tastes. Japanese cars as sold in Japan, were not models Americans would buy.

>In the meantime, this incredibly short sighted protectionism will end just like >the last round did.

It'll end with...Chinese cars made in US factories w/ American workers? Chinese V8 pickup trucks failing to win market share against the US competition?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxYjsZr1PwM

If you read Calvin and Hobbes you can learn that Taiwan used to be known for making... shirts.

It's like that with tools if you know what to buy, and costs well below the US brands.

For my primary tools I'll have hundreds of hours of use I still buy the more expensive brands, but on tools I'll use much less commonly I'll pick up a Chinese unit in a heartbeat for 1/10th the price.

At the time the US was making the most cars in the world...quality varied widely, to be generous.

You'd think so, but also, Tesla.

> Selling the most x will eventually translate into making the best x

It’s a theory for sure, but I don’t think that’s a common strategy for modern capitalism.

They can't buy Chinese cars now, but I imagine the next Democratic president might want to knock Elon musk down a peg or two.

That is not my personal experience. I get very often those cars of those other major German brands at SIXT car rental, and of course this is my personal opinion:

- BMW is indeed very nice, I agree. I also once had a 6 series convertible which was - apart from the very low consumption (Diesel) - really nice to drive. Their cars are indeed a good alternative at a lower price point. - Audi is the utmost catastrophe. Apart from the abysmal navigation system, the car simply doesn't feel safe at higher speeds (had an A6, your mileage may vary with tuned S models). I didn't want to drive faster than 180km/h - Same goes for Mercedes (drove C, E and S Classes). The entertainment system is straight from the 90ies and the steering gets super wobbly at higher speeds. - Toyota - are you kidding me? Very reliable, good value, but nowhere near the driving capabilities of a BMW or Porsche.

Of course they are all nice cars and should do the job, especially in countries with speed limits - until 120 km/h that all doesn't matter. I'm just saying, if you really want (and can) go fast, most of those cars don't deliver in my opinion.

My point is, just from my perspective (YMMV), the Porsche cars are pretty perfect. I have a hard time finding a car which behaves more precisely and reliably on the street, regardless of the speed, than a 911 or 718 - or a Taycan or Panamera.

That refers back to my original answer when the poster said Porsche are "in trouble" because they are "technologically underequipped" and "don't deliver meaningful benefits". There is a lot of stuff China and other carmakers haven't caught up to. Will they in the future? Maybe.

To take that German-centric thing out: Try going on a mountain road and have fun in the corners. I am sure, if you have multiple cars to do the same thing, the Porsche will rank pretty high.

In any case, of course, this is all a pretty niche market for people who love driving sports cars. In 99%, a Toyota can deliver exactly the same value for the base use case (going from A to B) for way less money.

After all, this is what the performance oriented cars by all German manufacturers are made for. Even a VW Golf GTI will happily cruise at 250 km/h.

If you prefer dealer maintenance, definitely. And tires cost more and are used up quickly (though BEVs may be similar here).

Unfortunately yes, my Porsche Cayman's service is usually at least twice that of my wife's BMW 4 series.

Not really, I usually don't carry them out at Porsche itself, only the regular inspections.

> 5. Lots of remote features tied to an app. The ability to look through cameras, auto-record videos when people get close, lock and unlock and view status of the car. Remote tracking via GPS in case it’s stolen.

This is akin to spyware, since inevitably it is a cloud service using an onboard cellular modem.

I would personally rather have none of 1-10. What I do want in a high-end vehicle is things that are there for my benefit (heated steering wheel, heated/ventilated seats, spacious cupholders, etc.) not the manufacturer's.

I have 1 and 8 on my cheap RAV4 from 7 years ago. Heated seats too.

Not sure about 4 and 9, but the rest are available in US cars (not sure if any US car has all of them, though).

Some of these have been around for almost a decade. Not specific to EVs. I drive an ancient car (2003), but I've rented cars that have the rest.

I have 1,2,6 and 8 plus part of 5 and 7 (remote lock, unlock, status and GPS tracking, heated and cooled seats) on my 4-year old Hyundai Tucson. Not expensive and a very good value for money car. Made in Alabama.

saw an xpeng playing music outside the car, not inside, for beach parties

and, this is not a joke, truly: the seat gave me a massage.

huh. I don't want any of those things and i do have a porsche.

Lol, 1 to 4 is just called "knowing how to drive". These cameras aren't a serious value add unless you're driving a massive tank, err car.

I think this is one place where European automakers are going to have to adapt or die out. Even if they can get the motors, batteries, and charging systems to a competitive level, Chinese manufacturers include most """luxury""" features by default. European manufacturers go the other way, including the hardware but locking the entire thing behind microtransactions or "upgrades".

They're going to need to cover the losses they're compensating for with the ridiculous upgrade prices somehow or they're going to lose even more customers. The import tariffs raised to protect the European market from affordable Chinese cars aren't going to work forever.

This is an odd one to take so long to "become normal" in luxury cars.

Lincoln started doing this about 20 years ago. You can buy Chevrolet pickup trucks with this feature. Of course my Polestar 2 (Swedish but made in China) has ventilation.

Now some might do true AC, while many just do ventilation, but either way it adds a lot of comfort if you're in a very warm cabin (or, say, have a huge panoramic sunroof.)

> Doing the same but going to BYD: 35K EUR.

To add insult to injury - a good portion of it is tariff (which in itself is just countering CN government subsidy)

I'd be careful buying Chinese EV's purely due to sanction/markup depreciation, on top of already hard EV depreciation.

I have a 2022 Porsche 911. It has a lot of physical controls for things in the cabin like climate control, suspension settings, cruise control, dashboard view, and audio. The car also has an auto steer and cruise control option which will accelerate and brake for you while also keeping the car in the lane. It can go from a stop to whatever speed you set it to. It’s great for traffic on the highway. That’s not too shabby for a 2022 non EV car. Current model Mercedes have level 4 driving automation where you can take your eyes off the road. I don’t think Tesla even has this level of driving automation yet.

Porsche buyers don't want self driving. The button thing is industry wide MBA group think that is being walked back. Their haptic buttons are actually not bad. Car manufacturers are shit at software, presumably because they don't feel the need to pay top euro for talent. Again an industry wide syndrome. Heck GM think it's smart to delete Apple carplay from their vehicles. The only electronics feature all buyers want.

I hate touch/sensor buttons and sliders. Give me back my physical buttons and spinning controls. Also, same for electrical speedometers/tachometers, etc

Watched it! I know it's from a US perspective, but where I live (Japan), $42000 is quite a lot! Definitely premium car territory. (E.g., Lexus RX base model)

IMO the car has a lot of bells and whistles that many drivers (probably!) don't really care about. But I guess car fans like this kind of stuff. The active noise cancelling feature might be nice, but wouldn't be surprised if we see regulation on that matter at some point. You kind of need to be alert of your surroundings, etc.

This is a car that is more expensive than a Tesla Model 3 in the Chinese market, with more or less the same features.

EVs as a whole are growing. Porsche however is struggling because of their "sports car" identity. Taycan sales dropped 22% year-over-year [0], and their 2025 EV sales only rose because the Macan EV is new and they discontinued the gas one in the EU. (Even then: Half of all Macan buyers worldwide went for the 11-year-old gas design over the EV.)

The market for EV sports cars is soft. The Rimac Nevera R broke 24 performance world records and yet nobody wants to buy it [1]. Even the CEO of Rimac has said people want an engine sound. Meanwhile Ferrari can launch an even more expensive gas car and it sells out before its officially announced [2].

I'm pro-EV and my partner owns one. They are practical appliances that are perfect for the 90% of people who just want to get from A to B. But the stats show that it's not just my personal preferences. The average sports car buyer wants an engine and exhaust.

0. https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/2026/company/porsche-deliver...

1. https://www.carscoops.com/2024/05/slow-selling-nevera-is-a-s...

2. https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/ferrar...

> driving on the road is not supposed to be fun.

Who says it's supposed to boring? It's supposed to be safe and you're supposed to drive with the consideration of others, but I don't think it's supposed to be either fun or boring, that's up to you.

I'm having a blast rolling down the highway in the middle of the night blasting music and singing, am I not allowed to do this because driving is supposed to not be fun?

You can have plenty of fun without putting other drivers in danger. I used to drive a NA Miata that took 9 seconds to get to 60 mph and it was the most fun car I've ever owned. But I'm a slow-car-fast person.

Most people can safely wring out their cars in 1st and 2nd on a highway on-ramp, or from a traffic light on an empty 55 mph country road. I own a fun weekend car that I take out at dawn on a Saturday to carve up a mountain pass - which is fun even at the speed limit. In a lightweight sports car with excellent brakes, I am safer than all the trucks I see on these roads.

I agree with this for the most part, though there are times and with specific cars that you can have a blast. I can have a lot of fun in an old M Coupe, or Miata.

I used to have a GT3...it was a dream car of mine and I finally got it. The sad reality was that in order to have fun with it on public roads I was either going to kill myself/someone else, or go to jail. The only way to really experience that car in a responsible way was to go to the track. Which I just flat out didn't have the time to do with young kids.

Things were very different 20-30 years ago. Roads were less crowded and people were much more respectful on the road. Now, especially where I live, it's a free for all Mad Max cosplay.

okay but why would you get Porsche in the first place then?

Luxury sport cars are sold on 2 basis, a status symbol, and being driver's car. If you don't have the second and it's just another EV why bother ?

That you believe that is just sad. One doesn’t need to break the law to have fun in the right car.

It definitely is, especially for the price.

But the 911 range has a lot of bandwidth and there are models that go from minimalist driver’s car (911 T) to Touring/GT (most 911s) to race car for the street (GT2/GT3). But you definitely pay to step outside the GT box.

And Apple is going to fail.

In Doug Demuro's list 4 out of top 6 are EVs. Porsche appears at #17. Incidentally it's an EV.

Petrol cars have led lights now too.

It’s an alignment problem, trivial fix.

The suspension is a rust issue, I believe EVs are still made of metal.

Given in the last 3 years I’ve only spent money on tyres, replacement wing mirror, and now suspension on this car, and you assert an EV needs more spending on tyres and suspension, it seems that an equivalent EV would be higher maintenence costs.

I’m sure things are different at the high end of the market where you’re spending £10k on a nearly new car, but at my end where it’s under £2k it doesn’t make sense.

When your LED brake light goes out, you have to purchase an entire assembly as the LED's are part of the PCB. There are no "bulbs" for a few dollars. And with the matrix LED's a few may go out, now your brake light "sort of" works, so it's even harder to justify replacing.

I own a Panamera and my husband owns an M850i. The Panamera drives like a Porsche, while the M850i is comparatively a boat. I'm not a big fan of how much suspension travel the M850i has; the Panamera has exactly the right amount to feel sporty but still comfortable, just like our 718 has.

The Cayenne has no right to be as fast as it is. The stupid thing will powerslide out of corners at 120 kmh and fly at hot hatch speeds through twisty cobblestone roads. The brakes were also wonderful and surprisingly cheap for the size. Didn't have air suspension so it rode like a fast car though.

It feels like engine sound has become more important to these people since EV's entered the market. I'm sure it was there before but not to the same extent.

Well those owners are idiots. That says nothing about the car. You can't exclude Toyota when you make the claim that hybrids are unreliable and inefficient either. They have proven that they can be reliable and efficient.

Hybrids aren't running around doing 30 miles a day with a 300 mile battery like most EVs. Talk about inefficient!

My main goal with buying an EV is to give the middle finger to the oil industry as they have meddled with the world too much.

They screwed public transit and entire nations just for profits. I love my Subbie and I'll keep that until it breaks apart and replace it with an EV. Maybe today there's many downsides to an EV, but I hope it evens up and maybe becomes even better to get one.

Nah, PHEVs are the perfect compromise for lots of people who wouldn't otherwise be able to go all electric. Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

My Outlander rarely needed repairs and I always plugged it in. The car even complained about me needing to use the gazoline in the tank because it risked getting old in the tank and needed to be replaced. That was a great car. My new EV, a Subaru Solterra is great too though.

That’s simple not true. Studies have shown that historically hybrid vehicles have fewer issues than any other type, possibly because reducing the ICE use increases reliability overall more than adding the minimal EV complexity.

> Being able to shed the ICE bits from the car's powertrain eliminates multiple entire classes of maintenance burden.

I don't know but is this a uniquely US (and/or a few other such countries) thing, because of the high volume of daily driving?

Here in India we send our (ICE) car in for a service somthing like once or twice a year? And that too is mostly because "the engine sounds a bit off", not "the car isn't starting".

Less maintenance sure is nice, but I don't think it's consciously a "problem" for many.

44 million US households have no garage, including ~2/3 of renters

> There's no need to get full EVSE for most people,

It's a lot more comfortable though. It's been a great addition to the home to get an EVSE, even a small single-phase one.

> Don't most people already have a plug in their garage?

Good point, most people without garages should continue buying hybrid or ICE, because EVs aren't for them yet.

Yes it's so easy - Just tell the butler to put it on charge when you arrive home.

>Also if everyone in your neighbourhood turning on a space heater strains the grid you have bigger problems.

Welcome to Texas.

And with Texas a 200 mile+ driving day is just more common than people from smaller places experience.

How has this played out in Norway? (If you know) They're at 90% EV market share, right?

Even in the US a regular wall outlet is enough - most people don’t commute far enough every day to need more than L1 charging overnight to keep up.

>Car prices have increased well above the rate of inflation over the last decade

This is a fair concern, but also, looking at the rise of average car prices is like looking at the rise of average iPhone prices. That is to say, cars (and iPhones) are providing increasingly premium offerings that didn’t exist decades ago. If you look at the entry levels of both these things, you find that the bottom-line price broadly keeps pace with inflation. And for cars, that’s with the addition of now-standard safety and convenience features. When you match cars feature-for-feature (an unrealistic comparison, as there aren’t really bare-bones cars on offer anymore), you’d see that cars are increasing in price much more slowly than inflation, and in other words, are effectively cheaper. Ultimately, whether car prices are rising or falling depends a lot on how you calculate things.

I’ll also add that EV pricing doesn’t have to mean insane car costs. The US market has the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf each selling for about $30k new and can be readily bought for half that with used inventory.

> The main issue will always be price.

You're right. There isn't a single legacy auto manufacturer in the US (Ford, GM, Stellantis) that can profitably sell an EV. Yet they make them anyway, and sell them for huge losses ($billions per year) because they have to meet mandates.

> Full EVs: Less moving parts = less maintenance required = less issues to worry about (think no oil changes, no timing belt changes, no spark plug replacements, no belt/filter changes, no exhaust system checks, etc).

The above is a tiny part of the costs of an ICE. Sure you have to do it, but either it isn't common, or it is cheap. ICEs have gotten very reliable over the decades.

Meanwhile most of the parts of a car a common between an ICE and EV. You have tires either way, which need to be rotated (do you?) Shocks/struts, rust, tie rods, AC compressors, just to pick a few random ones.

I also can't help but think but the decade over decade improvement in EV goodies is going to be steep: more sensors, more ability if not to fully self-drive then to take over this aspect of driving (like backing up), etc.

Don’t full battery packs weigh more than an ICE system? Plus, weight is a minimal factor in efficiency anyway.

Today, a PHEV is the best of all world’s, but full parity for BEVs (in the US) is almost here. Reliable trip charging (NACS, SuperCharger network) and available destination charging will be enough pretty soon.

His experience is biased because studies have shown that hybrids have fewer issues than pure ICE or pure BEV.

You know car emissions are like 15% total greenhouse gas emissions in the US right? And half that worldwide.

This is just the most visible source for a bunch of people who have made their conclusion unencumbered by the data.

The emissions from powering and heating your house are several times what your car emissions are.

So go solve that one and leave my Corolla alone.

That is no more true than it was for ICE vehicles.

Steering, braking, balance, suspension, Infotainment, UI and controls, and internal materials will all still vary widely for brands and manufacturers.

Not sure they care all that much about reliability. Just being cheap enough is enough

> Soon, battery weight and performance will be the main differentiator of vehicles.

People don't buy Corolla for performance. And even low-end EVs are "enough" thanks to the power coming on from the very lowest RPM. Aside from range all the characteristics are not performance based. It must be big enough, have expected comforts and look nice.

You can get a BMW for $40k or $120k. Big spectrum. As another datapoint, I have one of those higher tier BMWs and even the top trim Lucid's interior feels like a downgrade compared to my car. The $50-80k BMWs also feel cheap and crappy to drive when I've tested them. Tesla can't compete on anything except their ADAS which is superior.

If you're transitioning from a barebones 330i then yeah the Tesla is probably better. But it's not even close when you compare to the top end German vehicles.

Late reply, but did your colleague go from ICE BMWs to an EV Model 3? For me, zero maintenance and no more stopping at gas stations (you need a charger at home) were HUGE advantages to switching to an EV. So I also really liked switching from ICE to Tesla EV.

But I also much prefer my EV BMW to my previous Teslas. Nicer to drive, nicer features (better sound, HUD, sunroof), hardware controls, door handles that you can open with either hand, better in weather (no rain in the trunk).

My family complains the i4 has a smaller cabin, but the driver's seat feels just fine to me. :D

After the Israeli attack using pagers I think this is no longer paranoid at all.

The same goes for Chinese built cloud connected hardware, especially if it is grid connected, contains heater elements or batteries. Inverters, solar panels, vehicles, 3D printers, the list is endless and all of these are either potential fire starters or ways to destabilize the grid. Used maliciously the potential for misery is pretty large. All this crap that wants to connect to the cloud from a country where your average citizen has very limited access to the internet should give you pause: if the Chinese government thinks these connections are A-ok then they must see some advantage, especially if all the services are supposedly free of charge.

I do not think it is paranoia. But we can have this from anywhere. American devices, EU devices; if I cannot analyse the firmware, ICs etc, what is going to guarantee these are not remotely exploitable. Even if Porsche never built such a thing on purpose, the car is connected so someone can break in, hack it and do stuff including possible overhead the battery so it ignites.

It does not have to be on purpose quality wise either: I had 2 spicy pillows in my life (and I have a lot of gadgets, including fully Chinese ones); a Samsung flagship phone and a macbook air. Both just unannounced got very hot and broke open: no fire but still... So I would say it is possible for a state actor to remotely hack, take over and ignite your Samsung and Macbook as apparently it can already almost happen without hackers.

What to do about it? Without just fully open sourcing hardware and software, I do not know. I mean that would not help a lot if no one reads it and finds the issues/vulnerabilities, but at least we stand a chance, vs now. Unplugging from internet is not really a thing, although, when it comes to cars and airplanes i would rather see it mandatory non connected.

The reverse is clear for Chinese people. Do you remember when, in the early 2000s, the US sold a Boeing 767 intended for Chinese presidential use, and Chinese authorities later reported finding numerous hidden listening devices on board? There is a Chinese Wikipedia article about the incident [1], but no dedicated English one. More information in English can be found here [2].

[1] https://zh.wikipedia.org/zh-cn/%E6%B1%9F%E6%BE%A4%E6%B0%91%E...

[2] https://www.flightglobal.com/chinese-vip-jet-was-bugged/4121...

it's not paranoia

chips with backdoors which would allow exactly something like that (or many other things) have been found more then once in recent years AFIK

through a fancy personal car stopping working is the least relevant target. Network backbone, smart phones, and other core infrastructure is a much more relevant target. And even for cars all the non-personal vehicles (e.g. ambulance, trucks, police ...) are much more relevant targets.

Certainly anything that downloads over the air updates. I'm not mad that our government turned down import of EVs from a country that became an adversary

Disabling them is one thing. Having them auto-drive to select locations and self-immolate is another entirely.

Sadly, the US is more likely to at war with Europe than China

People who have purchased Hyundai/Kia products w/ the GDI Theta II engine would, perhaps, take issue with "used to be".

https://www.dashboard-light.com/reports/Hyundai.html

For what it's worth, this puts Hyundai around "industry average", above Acura, Audi, BMW, Subaru, Mazda, Nissan.

Below Chevrolet, Honda, Porsche, Toyota.

Hyundai is fairly unreliable. They were up and coming back in the 2000s and to some extent the 2010s, but their reliability has been quite poor in the past 5-10 years and I really wouldn't recommend a Hyundai to anyone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kia_Challenge

Yeah maybe I'll get a Chinese car in 50yrs

Anecdotal, but I'm extremely disappointed with my Hyundai Tucson purchase. It's the first car I've owned. The drive train is gone on it and the mechanic says it's a common issue. Only 140k on it, 2019. It's hard to believe I paid so much for it and got so little use.

We all know that. Doesn't mean we need to be OK with that forever should any other company attempt that?

Also don't ask VW what they did in latin America, or east China.

Early adopters of electric cars apparently want their cars to look like electric cars, but I am with you. Make them look normal and blend in a stop doing wonky things with the rest of the car like making door handles that are finicky and cumbersome. We already solved that problem.

Designers can’t help themselves when given the freedom to take things in a new direction, they forget there might be practical reasons for the old designs. (See Liquid Glass.)

The company that makes my pickup truck is headquartered in the Netherlands.

Teslas are junk? have you ever driven one recently?

I always loved BMWs from the 80s and 90s, but settled on Volkswagens because I was just a poor teen or early 20 year old. Finally got the means to buy a top of the line X7, and have regretted the purchase for may of the reasons you listed.

The software is garbage, the car is too fancy (electric folding seats) but poorly implemented so it’s just frustrating. Total nanny car, can’t turn off backup beeping alerts. Rear row of seats randomly go to full hot on the climate system.

New battery is $700. Can only use a BMW battery installed by a BMW technician with computer access (they are coded and only a tech with the keys can pair the new battery to your car).

Should have just bought a damned minivan, but the wife likes it and doesn’t want to get rid of it.

The enthusiasts car company is no more.

I haven't bought German ever, but everything I hear seems pretty negative.

Some of the recent models have plastic timing chain guides and have turned the engine around so that the timing chains are in the back. The only innocent explanation is that the car is only meant to last 10 years at most, so saving the money on plastic instead of metal and screwing whoever owns the car when the timing chains need to be redone (or ruining the engine when the chain fails) is out of scope for their quality team.

There were many older models of BMW that had an electric water pump. If that sounds silly, well, it is. And it failed frequently and was again, very difficult to replace.

I just don't have any respect for German automotive engineering. Reliability is job #1. And the company's themselves, well, "collusive" is a pretty good term. I saw an estimate that German auto industry collusion resulted in about $10k of additional cost per vehicle to U.S. buyers. The cases have somehow been kept quiet, but they've at least been caught holding back innovations until the other automakers have a competitive response, and gaslighting regulators into allowing higher emissions from diesels in the name of reducing the size and filling frequency of the AdBlue tank. I've also heard that there's another layer of this in the parts suppliers. Explains how a wiper motor or wiper body module is somehow hundreds of dollars.

My homecountry the Netherlands is the worst. The push for becoming 'small America' had us sell of everything we could possibly be proud off to other countries, including the US (mostly Blackrock and Vanguard) and India and China. Privatize everything because it works so well in the US, sell it all (private and public) off to the highest bidder and hope for globalization and the market. NL is doing well economy wise still, but I wonder how much better we could've done if we kept it all to grow.

I studied math at the University of Eindhoven which, at the time, basically meant you would work at Philips or one of its companies. I did not and in hindsight I don't think I could've handled the downfall of that company up close.

To close the loop, the debt is treasury bonds held by other countries?

can you expand on ASML losing its dominance? i have not heard that

Amen. This is some of the best descriptions of the current mid to upper class mentality in Europe. Frankly, I think only the common man feels what is really happening here.

I see this claim made all over the place in the media, and never made with evidence.

> where they just charge more money for the new generation rather than making the new generation just objectively better than the previous for the same cost.

Well, the new T-hybrid thing is really cool. But I'm not someone who spends $100k+ on a car.