This times a zillion! I think there's been a huge industry push to convince managers and more junior engineers that spark and distributed tools are the correct way to do data engineering.
I think its a similar pattern to web dev influencers have convinced everyone to build huge hydrated-spa-framework-craziness where a static site would do.
My advice to get out of this mess:
- Managers, don't ask for specific solutions (spark, react). Ask for clever engineers to solve problems and optimise / track what you vare about (cost, performance etc). You hired them to know best, and they probably do.
- Technical leads, if your manager is saying "what about hyperscale?" You don't have to say "our existing solution will scale forever". It's fine to say, "our pipelines handle dataset up to 20GB, we don't expect to see anything larger soon, and if we do we'll do x/y/z to meet that scale". Your manager probably just wants to know scaling isn't going to crash everything, not that you've optimised the hell out of everything for your excel spreadsheet processing pipeline.
Author here!
It's great to see this post I wrote years ago still being useful for people.
I agree with many here that the situation is arguably worse in many ways. However, along similar lines, I've been pleased to see a move away from cargo culting microservices (another topic I addressed in a separate post on that site).
To all those helping companies and teams improve performance, keep it up! There is hope!
Adam,
Thank you very much!
Been re-reading your post multiple times.
You inspired me to port Waters-Series (kind-of streams) to JavaScript to get pipelining for stream processing.
A little bit of history related to the article for any who might be interested...
mrjob, the tool mentioned in the article, has a local mode that does not use Hadoop, but just runs on the local computer. That mode is primarily for developing jobs you'll later run on a Hadoop cluster over more data. But, for smaller datasets, that local mode can be significantly faster than running on a cluster with Hadoop. That's especially true for transient AWS EMR clusters — for smaller jobs, local mode often finishes before the cluster is up and ready to start working.
Even so, I bet the author's approach is still significantly faster than mrjob's local mode for that dataset. What MapReduce brought was a constrained computation model that made it easy to scale way up. That has trade-offs that typically aren't worth it if you don't need that scale. Scaling up here refers to data that wouldn't easily fit on disks of the day — the ability to seamlessly stream input/output data from/to S3 was powerful.
I used mrjob a lot in the early 2010s — jobs that I worked on cumulatively processed many petabytes of data. What it enabled you to do, and how easy it was to do it, was pretty amazing when it was first released in 2010. But it hasn't been very relevant for a while now.
The bigness of your data has always depended on the what you are doing with it.
Consider the following table of medical surgeries: date,physician_name, surgery_name,success.
"What are the top 10 most common surgeries?" - easy in bash
"Who are the top physicians (% success) in the last year for those surgeries?" - still easy in bash
"Which surgeries are most affected by physician experience?" - very hard in bash, requires calculating for every surgery how many times that physician had performed that surgery on that day, then compare low and high experience outcomes.
A researcher might see a smooth continuum of increasingly complex questions, but there are huge jumps in computational complexity. At 50gb dataset might be 'bigger' than a 2tb one if you are asking tough questions.
It's easier for a business to say "we use Spark for data processing", than "we build bespoke processing engines on a case by case basis".
50GB and 2TB are both sizes that SQLite supports and could handle. You could probably solve all of the problems you mentioned with simple tools on a single server, in the language of your choice.
Sounds like a good fit for DuckDB.
Working on mrjob was a big part of my first job out of college. Fun to see it get mentioned more than ten years later.
What some commenters don't realize about these bureaucratic IO-heavy expensive tools is that sometimes they are used in order to apply a familiar way of thinking, which has Business Benefits. Sometimes you don't know if your task will take seconds, minutes, hours, days, or weeks on one fast machine with a well-thought-out program, but you really need it to take at most hours, and writing well-thought-out-programs takes time you could spend on other stuff. If you know you can scale the program in advance, it's lower risk to just write it as a Hadoop job and be done with it. Also, it helps to have an "easy" pattern for processing Data That Feels Big Even If It Isn't That Big, Although Yelp's Data Actually Was Big. Such was the case with mrjob stuff at Yelp in 2012. They got a lot of mileage out of it!
The other funny thing about mrjob is that it's a layer on Hadoop Streaming, which is a term for when the Java process actually running the Hadoop worker opens a subprocess to your Python script which accepts input on stdin and writes output on stdout, rather than working on values in memory. A high I/O price to pay for the convenience of writing Python!
That's a good point. Hadoop may not be the most efficient way, but when a deliverable is required, Hadoop is a known quantity and really works.
I did some interesting work ten years ago, building pipelines to create global raster images of the entire Open Street Map road network [1]. I was able to process the planet in 25 minutes on a $50k cluster.
I think I had the opposite problem: Hadoop wasn't shiny enough and Java had a terrible reputation in academic tech circles. I wish I'd known about mrjob because that would have kept the Python maximalists happy.
I had lengthy arguments with people who wanted to use Spark which simply did not have the chops for this. With Spark, attempting to process OSM for a small country failed.
Another interesting side-effect of using the map-reduce paradigm was with processing vector datasets. PostGIS took multiple days to process the million-vertex Norwegian national parks, however splitting the planet into data density sensitive tiles (~ 2000 vertices) I could process the planet in less than an hour.
Then Google Earth Engine came along and I had to either use that, or change career. Somewhat ironically GEE was built in Java.
I’ve also seen some Really Really Bad software due to engineers having “Not Invented Here” syndrome. If it takes using big well known frameworks to avoid some of that it’s worth the cost.
When I worked as a data engineer, I rewrote some Bash and Python scripts into C# that were previously processing gigabytes of JSON at 10s of MB/s - creating a huge bottleneck.
By applying some trivial optimizations, like streaming the parsing, I essentially managed to get it to run at almost disk speed (1GB/s on an SSD back then).
Just how much data do you need when these sort of clustered approaches really start to make sense?
> I rewrote some Bash and Python scripts into C# that were previously processing gigabytes of JSON
Hah, incredibly funny, I remember doing the complete opposite about 15 years ago, some beginner developer had setup a whole interconnected system with multiple processes and what not in order to process a bunch of JSON and it took forever. Got replaced with a bash script + Python!
> Just how much data do you need when these sort of clustered approaches really start to make sense?
I dunno exactly what thresholds others use, but I usually say if it'd take longer than a day to process (efficiently), then you probably want to figure out a better way than just running a program on a single machine to do it.
A C# executable is more similar to a bash/Python script than it is to a interconnected system using multiple processes.
Yeah, I realize now that my comment actually misses the most important point, the "interconnected system with multiple processes" I was talking about was made in C#, that's why the whole "I did the reverse as you" was funny to me in the first place.
I like the peer comment's answer about a processing time threshold (e.g., a day). Another obvious threshold is data that doesn't conveniently fit on local disks. Large scale processing solutions can often process directly from/to object stores like S3. And if it's running inside the same provider (e.g., AWS in the case of S3), data can often be streamed much faster than with local SSDs. 10GB/s has been available for a decade or more, and I think 100GB/s is available these days.
> data can often be streamed much faster than with local SSDs. 10GB/s has been available for a decade or more, and I think 100GB/s is available these days.
In practice most AWS instances are 10Gbps capped. I have seen ~5Gbps consistently read from GCS and S3. Nitro based images are in theory 100Gbps capable, in practice I've never seen that.
Also, anything under 16 vCPUs generally has baseline / burst bandwidth, with the burst being best-effort, 5-60 minutes.
This has, at multiple companies for me, been the cause of surprise incidents, where people were unaware of this fact and were then surprised when the bandwidth suddenly plummeted by 50% or more after a sustained load.
I remember a panel once at a PyCon where we were discussing, I think, the anaconda distribution in the context of packaging and a respected data scientist (whose talks have always been hugely popular) made the point that he doesn't like Pandas because it's not excel. The latter was his go to tool for most of his exploratory work. If the data were too big, he'd sample it and things like that but his work finally was in Excel.
Quick Python/bash to cleanup data is fine too I suppose and with LLMs, it's easier than ever to write the quick throwaway script.
I took a bio statistic class. The tools were Excel/ R or Stata.
I think most people used R. Free and great graphing. Though the interactivity of Excel is great for what ifs. I never got R till I took that class. Though RStudio makes R seem like scriptable excel.
R/Python are fast enough for most things though a lot of genomic stuff (Blast alignments etc..) are in compiled languages.
Whenever I had to use anaconda it was slow as molasses. Was that ever fixed?
This has been fixed for ages. The dep solver was changed to Libmamba a few years ago.
What tasks were slow?
How do you stream parse json? I thought you need to ingest it whole to ensure it is syntactically valid, and most parsers don't work with inchoate or invalid json? Or at least it doesn't seem trivial.
I don't know what the GP was referring too, but often this is about "JSONL" / "JSON Lines" - files containing one JSON object per line. This is common for things like log files. So, process the data as each line is deserialized rather than deserializing the entire file first.
I used Newtonsoft.Json which takes in a stream, and while it can give you objects, it can also expose it as a stream of tokens.
The bulk of the data was in big JSON arrays, so you basically consumed the array start token, then used the parser to consume an entire objects which could be turned into a C# object by the deserializer, then you consumed a comma or end array token until you ran out of tokens.
I had to do it like this because DS-es were running into the problem that some of the files didn't fit into memory. The previous approach took 1 hour, involved reading the whole file into memory and parsing it as JSON (when some of the files got over 10GB, even 64GB memory wasnt enough and the system started swapping).
It wasn't fast even before swapping (I learned just how slow Python can be), but then basically it took a day to run a single experiment. Then the data got turned into a dataframe.
I replaced that part of the Python code processing and outputted a CSV which Pandas could read without having to trip through Python code (I guess it has an internal optimized C implementation).
The preprocessor was able to run on the build machines and DSes consumed the CSV directly.
This sounds similar to how in C#/.NET there are (at least) 3 methods to reading XML: XmlDocument, XPathDocument, or XmlReader. The first 2 are in-memory object models that must parse the entire document to build up an object hierarchy, which you then access object-oriented representations of XML constructs like elements and attributes. The XmlReader is stream-based, where you handle tokens in the XML as they are read (forward-only.)
Any large XML document will clobber a program using the in-memory representations, and the solution is to move to XmlReader. System.Text.Json (.NET built-in parsing) has a similar token-based reader in addition to the standard (de)serialization to objects approach.
Would for example https://pypi.org/project/json-stream/ have met your needs?
From the README, features include:
> native code parsing speedups for most common platforms
Which is to say, roughly analogous to "relying on NumPy". (A well-designed system avoids repeatedly calling from Python to C and prefers to let loops live within the C code; that applies at least as much to tree-like data as array-like data.)
> I wish Python was at least as fast as Node (which also can have its own share of performance cliffs) It's possible that nowadays Python has JITs that improve performance to Java levels while keeping compatibility with most existing code - I haven't used Python professionally in quite a few years.
No guarantees, but have you tried PyPy? It's existed since 2007 and definitely improved over time.
I would say that "performance cliffs" are just endemic to programming. Even in C you find people writing bad algorithms because better ones seem (at least superficially) much harder to write — especially if the good algorithm requires, say, a hash table. (C++ standard library containers definitely ameliorate this effect, but you pay in code complexity, especially where templates are needed.) And on the other hand you sometimes see big improvements from dropping to assembly (cf. ffmpeg).
You assume it is valid, until it isn't and you can have different strategies to handle that, like just skipping the broken part and carrying on.
Anyway, you write a state machine that processes the string in chunks – as you would do with a regular parser – but the difference is that the parser is eager to spit out a stream of data that matches the query as soon as you find it.
The objective is to reduce the memory consumption as much as possible, so that your program can handle an unbounded JSON string and only keep track of where in the structure it currently is – like a jQuery selector.
There's a whole heap of approaches, each with their own tradeoffs. But most of them aren't trivial, no. And most end up behaving erratically with invalid json.
You can buffer data, or yield as it becomes available before discarding, or use the visitor pattern, and others.
One Python library that handles pretty much all of them, as a place to start learning, would be: https://github.com/daggaz/json-stream
> Just how much data do you need when these sort of clustered approaches really start to make sense?
I did not see your comment earlier, but to stay with Chess see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=46667287, with ~14Tb uncompressed.
It's not humongous and it can certainly fit on disk(s), but not on a typical laptop.
> Just how much data do you need when these sort of clustered approaches really start to make sense?
You really need an enormous amount of data (or data processing) to justify a clustered setup. Single machines can scale up rather quite a lot.
It'll cost money, but you can order a 24x128GB ram, 24x30TB ssd system which will arrive in a few days and give you 3 TB ram, 720 TB (fast) disk. You can go bigger, but it'll be a little exotic and the ordering process might take longer.
If you need more storage/ram than around that, you need clustering. Or if the processing power you get in your single system storage isn't enough, you would need to cluster, but ~ 256 cores of cpu is enough for a lot of things.
What motherboard supports this much ram?
This supports up to 48x 256GB DIMMs over two sockets, which I believe is the maximum that EPYC Turin supports: https://www.asrockrack.com/general/productdetail.asp?Model=T...
https://store.supermicro.com/us_en/systems/a-systems/h13-2u-...
I have no experience with these, but lots of good experiences with last decade supermicro systems.
It's not about how much data you have, but also the sorts of things you are running on your data. Joins and group by's scale much faster than any aggregation. Additionally, you have a unified platform where large teams can share code in a structured way for all data processing jobs. It's similar in how companies use k8s as a way to manage the human side of software development in that sense.
I can however say that when I had a job at a major cloud provider optimizing spark core for our customers, one of the key areas where we saw rapid improvement was simply through fewer machines with vertically scaled hardware almost always outperformed any sort of distributed system (abet not always from a price performance perspective).
The real value often comes from the ability to do retries, and leverage left over underutilized hardware (i.e. spot instances, or in your own data center at times when scale is lower), handle hardware failures, ect, all with the ability for the full above suite of tools to work.
Other way around. Aggregation is usually faster than a join.
Disagree, though in practice it depends on the query, cardinality of the various columns across table, indices, and RDBMS implementation (so, everything).
A simple equijoin with high cardinality and indexed columns will usually be extremely fast. The same join in a 1:M might be fast, or it might result in a massive fanout. In the case of the latter, if your RDBMS uses a clustering index, and if you’ve designed your schemata to exploit this fact (e.g. a table called UserPurchase that has a PK of (user_id, purchase_id)) can still be quite fast.
Aggregations often imply large amounts of data being retrieved, though this is not necessarily true.
How is a proper PK choice a high level of optimization?
unconvinced. any join needs some kind of seek on the secondary relation index, or a bunch of state if ur stream joining to build temporary index sizes O(n) until end of batch. on the other hand summing N numbers needs O(1) memory and if your data is column shaped it’s like one CPU instruction to process 8 rows. in “big data” context usually there’s no traditional b-tree index to join either. For jobs that process every row in the input set Mr Join is horrible for perf to the point people end up with a dedicated join job/materialized view so downstream jobs don’t have to re do the work
An aggregation is less work than a join. You are segmenting the data in basically the same way in ideal conditions for a join as you are in an aggregation. Think of an aggregation as an inner join against a table of buckets (plus updating a single value instead of keeping a number of copies around). In practice this holds with aggregation being a linear amount faster than a join over the same data. That delta is the extra work the join needs to do to keep around a list of rows rather than a single value being updated (and in cache) repeatedly. Depending on the data this delta might be quite small. But without a very obtuse aggregation function (maybe ketosis perhaps), the aggregation will be faster. Its updating a single value vs appending to a list with the extra memory overhead this introduces.
I'm saying that a smaller amount of data means more compute is required for a join. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
Adam Drake's example (OP) also streams from disk. And the unix pipeline is task-parallel.
Bash is built around streaming though. You have to know how to use the tools to get the gains.
you didn't need to read to rewrite to C# to do that - python should be able to handle streaming that amount/velocity of data fine, at least through a native extension like msgspec or pydantic. additionally, you made it much harder for other data engineers that need to maintain/extend the project in the future to do so.
The C# is probably far more maintainable and less error prone than Python. At least in my experience that's almost always the case.
The amount of Python jobs I've had which run fine for several hours and then break with runtime errors, whereas with C# you can be reliably sure that if it starts running it will finish running.
Not a language problem, it's a dev culture problem. You can hold your devs accountable to the quality of their code. Strong er typing support via static analysis as well as runtime validation with untrusted input/data has really helped python alot.
I'm not necessarily the biggest fan of python, but writing a data engineering tool in a non-data engineering focused language seems like a bad decision. Now when the OP leaves the organization is in a much tougher position.
I'm a software and data engineer. I work with C# pretty extensively in my software day job. I've never seen a data engineer job listing mention C#.
Additionally, the way the OP's comment reads, I'm ok with the assumption I made. It reads like it was a unilateral decision on their part and not something that got buy in from the team.
A selection of times it's been previously posted:
(2018, 222 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17135841
(2022, 166 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30595026
(2024, 139 comments) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39136472 - by the same submitter as this post.
I think many devs learn the trade with Windows and don't get exposure to these tools.
Plus, they require a bit of reading because they operate on a higher level of abstraction than loops and ifs. You get implicit loops, your fields get cut up automatically, and you can apply regexes simultaneously on all fields. So it's not obvious to the untrained eye.
But you get a lot of power and flexibility on the cli, which enable you to rapidly put together an ad hoc solution which can get the job done or at least serve as a baseline before you reach for the big guns.
> The first thing to do is get a lot of game data. This proved more difficult than I thought it would be, but after some looking around online I found a git repository on GitHub from rozim that had plenty of games. I used this to compile a set of 3.46GB of data, which is about twice what Tom used in his test. The next step is to get all that data into our pipeline.
It would be interesting to redo the benchmark but with a (much) larger database.
Nowadays the biggest open-data for chess must comes from Lichess https://database.lichess.org, with ~7B games and 2.34 TB compressed, ~14TB uncompressed.
Would Hadoop win here?
If you get all the data on fast SSDs in a single chassis, you probably still beat EMR over S3. But then you have a whole dedicated server to manage your 14TB of chess games.
The "EMR over S3" paradigm is based on the assumption that the data isn't read all that frequently, 1-10x a day typically, so you want your cheap S3 storage but once in a while you'll want to crank up the parallelism to run a big report over longer time periods.
Almost certainly not. You can go on AWS or GCP and spin up a VM with 2.2 TB RAM and 288 vCPUs. Worst case, if streaming the data sequentially isn't fast enough, you can use something like GNU Parallel to launch processes in parallel to use all those 288 cpus. (It's also extremely easy to set up - 'apt install parallel' is about all you need.) That starts to resemble Hadoop, if you squint, except that it's all running on the same machine. As a result, it's going to outperform Hadoop significantly.
The only reason not to do that is if for some reason the workload won't support that kind of out-of-the-box parallelism. But in that case, you'd be writing custom code for Hadoop or Spark anyway, so there's an argument for doing the same to run on a single VM. These days it's pretty easy to essentially vibe code a custom script to do what you need.
At the company I'm with, we use Spark and Apache Beam for many of our large workloads, but that's typically involving data at the petabyte scale. If you're just dealing with a few dozen terabytes, it's often faster and easier to spin up a single large VM. I just ran a process on Friday like that, on a 96-core VM with 350 GB RAM.
It depends on what you were trying to with the data. Hadoop would never win, but Spark can allow you to hold all that data in memory across multiple machines and perform various operations on it.
If all you wanted to do was filter the dataset for certain fields, you can likely do something faster programmatically on a single machine.
Probably not.
The compressed data can fit onto a local SSD. Decompression can definitely be streamed.
Not only can it be streamed, but lz4 will probably make things quicker.
> Would Hadoop win here?
Hadoop never wins. Its the worst of all possible worlds.
what would you calculate in the data?
I could be tempted to do some fun on an NVL72 ;-)
Tangential, but this reminds of the older K website when it used to be shakti.com that had an intro like this in their about section:
1K rows: use excel
1M rows: use pandas/polars
1B rows: use shakti
1T rows: only shakti
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20230331180931/https://shakti.co...
No joins in that article?
The comments here smell of "real engineers use command line". But I am not sure they ever actually worked with analysing data more than using it as a log parser.
Yes Hadoop is 2014.
These days you obviously don't set up a Hadoop cluster. You use the cloud provider service provided (BigQuery or AWS Athena for example).
Or map your data into DuckDB or use polars if it is small.
It depends. I’ve done plenty of data processing, including at large fortune 10s. Most of the big data could be shrunk to small data if you understood the use case— pre-aggregating, filtering to smaller datasets based on known analysis patterns, etc.
Now, you could argue that that’s cheating a bit and introduces preprocessing that is as complex as running Hadoop in the first place, but I think it depends.
In my experience, though, most companies really don’t have big data, and many that do don’t really need to.
Most companies aren’t fortune 500s.
I used to work at Elastic, and I noticed that most (not all!) of the customers who walked up to me at the conferences were there to ask about datasets that easily fit into memory on a cheap VPS.
Let your analysts use DuckDB or pandas/polars then instead of quirky command line tools.
> But I am not sure they ever actually worked with analysing data more than using it as a log parser.
It really feels that way. Real data analysis involves a lot more than just grepping logs. And the reason to be wary of starting out unprepared for that kind of analysis is that migrating to a better solution later is a nightmare.
In many ways HN is Reddit in denial at this point :) Comments and upvotes that are based mostly on vibes, with depth and discussion usually happening somewhere towards the middle of the comment tree.
Where else would you JOIN in?
I'm about to start looking - this JOINt's way past its prime
It’s easy to overlook how often straightforward approaches are the best fit when the data and problem are well understood. Large expensive tools can become problems in their own right creating complexity that then requires even more tooling to manage. (Maybe that's the intent?) The issue is that teams and companies often adopt optimization frameworks earlier than necessary. Starting with simpler tools can get you most of the way there and in many cases they turn out to be all that’s needed.
I've contributed to PrestoDB, but the availability of DuckDB and fast multi core machines with even faster SSDs makes the need for distribution all the more niche, or even cargo-culting Google or Meta.
The benefit of prestodb is that it can be used without even starting one of these expensive instances in AWS Athena.
MapReduce is from a world with slow HDDs, expensive ram, expensive enterprise class servers, fast network.
In that case to get best performance, you’d have to shard your data across a cluster and use mapreduce.
Even in the authors 2014 SSDs multi-core consumer PC world, their aggregate pipeline would be around 2x faster if the work was split across two equivalent machines.
The limit of how much faster distributed computing is comes down to latency more than throughput. I’d not be surprised if this aggregate query could run in 10ms on pre sharded data in a distributed cluster.
Confusing the concept and the implementation.
Somebody has to go back to first principles. I wrote pig scripts in 2014 in Palo Alto. Yes, it was shit. IYKYK. But the author, and near everybody in this thread, are wrong to generalize.
PCIe would have to be millions of times faster than Ethernet before command line tools are actually faster than distributed computing and I don't see that happening any time soon.
Great article. Hadoop (and other similar tools) are for datasets so huge they don't fit on one machine.
https://www.scylladb.com/2019/12/12/how-scylla-scaled-to-one...
I like this one where they put a dataset on 80 machines only then for someone to put the same dataset on 1 Intel NUC and outperform in query time.
https://altinity.com/blog/2020-1-1-clickhouse-cost-efficienc...
Datasets never become big enough…
>Datasets never become big enough…
Not only is this a contrived non-comparison, but the statement itself is readily disproven by the limitations basically _everyone_ using single instance ClickHouse often run into if they actually have a large dataset.
Spark and Hadoop have their place, maybe not in rinky dink startup land, but definitely in the world of petabyte and exabyte data processing.
When a single server is not enough, you deploy ClickHouse on a cluster, up to thousands of machines, e.g., https://clickhouse.com/blog/how-clickhouse-powers-ahrefs-the...
Well, at my old company we had some datasets in the 6-8 PB range, so tell me how we would run analytics on that dataset on an Intel NUC.
Just because you don't have experience of these situations, it doesn't mean they don't exist. There's a reason Hadoop and Spark became synonymous with "big data."
These situations are rare not difficult.
The solutions are well known even to many non-programmers who actually have that problem:
There are also sensor arrays that write 100,000 data points per millisecond. But again, that is a hardware problem not a software problem.
Well yeah, but that's a _very_ different engineering decision with different constraints, it's not fully apples to apples.
Having materialised views increases insert load for every view, so if you want to slice your data in a way that wasn't predicted, or that would have increased ingress load beyond what you've got to spare, say, find all devices with a specific model and year+month because there's a dodgy lot, you'll really wish you were on a DB that can actually run that query instead of only being able to return your _precalculated_ results.
And we can have pretty fucking big single machines right now
The same thing is true with Sqlite vs Postgres. Most startups need Sqlite, not Postgres. Many queries run an order of magnitude faster. Not only is it better for your users, it's life changing to see the test suites (which would take minutes to run) complete in mere seconds
Feels like quibbling over the differences between two databases that are going to act the same for 90% of projects out there doesn't really matter.
If you want speed, just have your database stored in the same place as your application, locally, rather than hopping across the world to retrieve data that can be located next to the code.
That would probably be the easiest thing to do to get a real measured performance gains.
As other commentators pointed out, computers are extremely powerful. This isn't 1995, you can easily host everything in the same local area and get a very responsive application with very minimal needs to worry about resource constraints.
> Many queries run an order of magnitude faster.
Given how primitive SQLite's optimizer is and how similar the storage and execution engines between the two are in terms of architecture, this seems unlikely to be the norm unless you did something wrong on the Postgres side. (Of course, no RDBMS optimizer will always give the best answer, so there's bound to be such cases.)
I don't know where this SQLite obsession is coming from these days, but it doesn't help that Cloudflare/Fly/other EngBrands are doing it.
I’m curious about the memory usage of the cat | grep part of the pipeline. I think the author is processing many small files?
In which case it makes the analysis a bit less practical, since the main use case I have for fancy data processing tools is when I can’t load a whole big file into memory.
Memory footprint is tiny:
Unix shell pipelines are task-parallel. Every tool gets spun up as its own unix process — think "program" (fork-exec). Standard input and standard output (stdin, stdout) get hooked up to pipes. Pipes are like temporary files managed by the kernel (hand-wave). Pipe buffer size is a few KB. Grep does a blocking read on stdin. Cat writes to stdout. Both on a kernel I/O boundary. Here the kernel can context-switch the process when waiting for I/O.
In the past there was time-slicing. Now with multiple cores and hardware threads they actually run concurrently.
This is very similar to old-school approach to something like multiple threads, but processes don’t share virtual address spaces in the CPU's memory management unit (MMU).
Further details: look up McIlroy's pipeline design.
Something to note here is that the result of xargs -P is unlikely to be satisfactory, since all of the subprocesses are simply connected to the terminal and stomp over each other's outputs. A better choice would be something like rush or, for the Perl fans, parallel.
I had a similar very tiny-scale problem that was solved much quicker by awk+perl. I had a relatively large dataset across many YAML files that I needed to compute a result. Turns out that using yq / jq to performn a query was much (order of magnitudes) slower (>10m) to compute any kind of result. Outputting the data into CSV, then iterating over that was much, much faster (seconds). Of course, dumping it into SQlite and querying that was nearly instantaneous.
I know it’s not a direct 1:1 comparison, but it brings to mind that solutions that were made common decades ago are still relevant today.
And now with things like DuckDB and clickhouse-local you won't have to worry about data processing performance ever again. Just kidding, but especially with ClickHouse it's so much better to handle the large data volume compared to the past, and even a single beefy server is often enough to satisfy all data analytics needs for a moderate-to-large company.
This has been a recurring theme for ages, with a few companies taking it to extremes—there are people transpiring COBOL to bash too…
Hadoop, blast from the past
This makes me think of Bane's rule, described in this comment here [1]:
Bane's rule, you don't understand a distributed computing problem until you can get it to fit on a single machine first.
Lecture 2: Command-line Environment of Missing Semester 2026 released today! - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccBGsPedE9Q
Yes, but you both don’t raise investor money with efficient understanding of the chaining of CLI tools that already do the job, neither convince your clients that they can get value for their money.
And since AI agents are extremely good at using them, command-line tools are also probably 235x more effective for your data science needs.
It was a fun moment to finally work on a data problem that did not fit on any (practical) machine. I needed about 50TiB of memory to process a multi-PiB set of logs.
It's worth remembering however that even though it's less efficient per-CPU or whatever to split a large task into many smaller tasks, it may be more efficient overall alongside other workloads as you can bin-pack tasks more efficiently on a cluster, not to mention if tasks fail you are retrying less of the overall work.
All this is to say, the article makes a very good point, but doing it all on one machine also has problems. Just don't cargo cult engineering decisions.
Remember back in the day it being called “Hadpoop”
highly recommend xsv by BurntSushi [ csv parser / wrangler written in rust ]
It's retired in favor of qsv and xan: https://github.com/BurntSushi/xsv
And now you can do this with polars in parallel on all your cores and the GPU, using almost the same syntax as in pyspark.
Earlier in 2010 - http://widgetsandshit.com/teddziuba/2010/10/taco-bell-progra...
mawk is fast
The saddest part about this article being from 2014 is that the situation has arguably gotten worse.
We now have even more layers of abstraction (Airflow, dbt, Snowflake) applied to datasets that often fit entirely in RAM.
I've seen startups burning $5k/mo on distributed compute clusters to process <10GB of daily logs, purely because setting up a 'Modern Data Stack' is what gets you promoted, while writing a robust bash script is seen as 'unscalable' or 'hacky'. The incentives are misaligned with efficiency.
I've done a handful of interviews recently where the 'scaling' problem involves something that comfortably fits on one machine. The funniest one was ingesting something like 1gb of json per day. I explained, from first principals, how it fits, and received feedback along the lines of "our engineers agreed with your technical assessment, but that's not the answer we wanted, so we're going to pass". I've had this experience a good handful of times.
I think a lot of people don't realize machines come with TBs of RAM and hundreds of physical cores. One machine is fucking huge these days.
The wildest part is they’ll take those massive machines, shard them into tiny Kubernetes pods, and then engineer something that “scales horizontally” with the number of pods.
Yeah man, you're running on a multitasking OS. Just let the scheduler do the thing.
Maybe you are right about kubernetes, I don't have enough experience to have an opinion. I disagree about containers though, especially the wider docker toolchain.
It is not that difficult to understand a Dockerfile and use containers. Containers, from a developer pov, solve the problem of reliably reproducing development, test and production environments and workloads, and distributing those changes to a wider environment. It is not perfect, its not 100% foolproof, and its not without its quirks or learning curve.
However, there is a reason docker has become as popular as it is today (not only containers, but also dockerfiles and docker compose), and that is because it has a good tradeoff between various concerns that make it a highly productive solution.
Hahhah, yuuuup.
I can maybe make a case for running in containers if you need some specific security properties but .. mostly I think the proliferation of 'fucked up piles of shit' is the problem.
Containers are just processes plus some namespacing, nothing really stops you from running very huge tasks on Kubernetes nodes. I think the argument for containers and Kubernetes is pretty good owing to their operational advantages (OCI images for distributing software, distributed cron jobs in Kubernetes, observability tools like Falco, and so forth).
So I totally understand why people preemptively choose Kubernetes before they are scaling to the point where having a distributed scheduler is strictly necessary. Hadoop, on the other hand, you're definitely paying a large upfront cost for scalability you very much might not need.
Disagree.
Different processes can need different environments.
I advocate for something lightweight like FreeBSD jails.
Yes, Sun had the marketing message "The network is the computer" already in the 1980's, we were doing microservices with plain OS processes.
Containers solve:
1. Better TCP port administration with networking layer
2. Clusterfuck that is glibc versions
3. Shipping a Python venv
Or your CNI implementation is made of rolled up turds and you lose a node or two from the cluster control plane every day.
(Large EKS cluster)
Are you saying that running your application in a pile of containers somehow helps that problem ..? It's the same problem as CPU scheduling, we just don't have good schedulers yet.. Lots of people are working on it though
This is especially aggravating when the os inside the container and the language runtimes are much heavier than the process itself.
I've seen arguments for nano services (I wouldn't even call them micros services), that completely ignored that part. Split a small service in n tiny services, such that you have 10(os, runtime, 0.5) rather than 2(os, runtime, x).
There is no os inside the container. That's a big part of the reason containerization is so popular as a replacement for heavier alternatives like full virtualization. I get that it's a bit confusing with base image names like "ubuntu" and "fedora", but that doesn't mean that there is a nested copy of ubuntu/fedora running for every container.
I had to re-read this a few times. I am sad now.
To be fair each of those pods can have dedicated, separate external storage volumes which may actually help and it’s def easier than maintaining 200 iscsi or more whatever targets yourself
I think my brain hurts
I mean, a large part of the point is that you can run on separate physical machines, too.
I recently had to parse 500MB to 2GB daily log files into analytical information for sales. Quick and dirty, the application would of needed 64GB RAM and work laptop only has 48GB RAM. After taking time cleaning it up, it was using under 1GB of RAM and worked faster by only retaining records in RAM if need be between each day.
It is not about what you are doing, it is always about how you do it.
This was the same with doing OCR analysis of assembly and production manuals. Quick and dirty, it would of took over 24 hours of processing time, after moving to semaphores with parallelization it took less than two hours to process all the information.
> It is not about what you are doing, it is always about how you do it.
It saddens me to see how the LinkedIn slop style is expanding to other platforms
"It's not about X, it's about Y" is a very common (and tired) LinkedIn trope.
In interviews just give them what they are looking for. Don't overthink it. Interviews have gotten so stupidly standardized as the industry at large copied the same Big Tech DSA/System Design/Behavioral process. And therefore interview processes have long been decoupled from the business reality most companies face. Just shard the database and don't forget the API Gateway
> In interviews just give them what they are looking for
Unless, of course, you have multiple options and you don’t want to work for a company that’s looking for dumb stuff in interviews.
100%. Interviews should be a two-way filter. I’m sympathetic to unemployed-and-just-need-something, but also: boy are there a lot of companies hiring data engineers.
Meh .. I've played that game; it doesn't work out well for anyone involved.
I optimize my answers for the companies I want to work for, and get rejected by the ones I don't. The hardest part of that strategy is coming to terms with the idea that I constantly get rejected by people that I think are mostly <derogatory_words_here>, but I've developed thick skin over the years.
I'd much rather spend a year unemployed (and do a ton of painful interviews) and find a company who's values align with mine, than work for a year on a team I disagree with constantly and quit out of frustration.
I agree with your observation. My issue is (from experience) it's really hard to tell from the outside if a teams' values align with mine. Many teams talk the talk, but don't walk the walk, as the saying goes. It's just easier to not participate than it is to guess, and be wrong.
I also believe that running a broken interview process actively selects for qualities you actually don't want, so it's much more likely that teams conducting those interviews aren't teams I want to work on.
Edit: As credence for my claims, the best team I've ever worked on was a team I did 90%+ of the hiring for, and we didn't do any of the 'typical' interview bullshit most companies do.
What we did instead was sit people down and have deep technical conversations about systems they'd worked on in the past. The candidate would explain, in as much detail as they could muster, a system they'd worked on in the past, down to the lowest level details. Usually, they would talk to us for at least 20-30 minutes, then, we (the interviewers) would pose questions, usually starting with the form 'if we changed X, what effect would it have'. Doing interviews in this style make a few things immediately obvious:
1. Did the candidate have a deep, systemic understanding of the system they worked on?
2. Does the candidate have a good mental model for evaluating change in the system?
That's how I conduct interviews, and unsurprisingly, when I get interviewed like that, my success rate is 100%. I don't think I've ever done an interview like that which did not result in an offer.
Anyways, there's some rambling and unsolicited opinions for you :)
The interview process determines who gets hired, which determines their real-world process. Even if most of their people were hired under a better system, future hires will come in under this one.
This. Most interviewers don't want to do interviews, they have more important job to do (at least, that's what they claim). So they learn questions and approaches from the same materials and guides that are used by candidates. Well, I'm guilty of doing exactly this a few times.
Meh. as an interviewer I would always make it clear if we wanted to switch to “let’s pretend it doesn’t fit on a machine now”.
Demonstrating competency is always good.
> but that's not the answer we wanted
You could have learned this if you were better about collecting requirements. You can tell the interviewer "I'd do it like this for this size data, but I'd do it like this for 100x data. Which size should I design this for?" If they're looking for one direction and you ask which one, interviewers will tell you.
I've done that too and, in my experience, people that ask a scaling question that fits on a single machine don't have the capacity to have that nuanced conversation. I usually try to help the interviewer adjust the scale to something that actually requires many machines, but they usually don't get it.
Said another way, how do you have a meaningful conversation about scaling with a person who thinks their application is huge, but in reality only requires a tiny fraction of a single machine? Sometimes, there's such a massive gulf between perception and reality that the only thing to do is chuckle and move on.
The burden of wisdom.
Yes, but then how are these people going to justify the money they're spending on cloud systems?... They need to find only reasons to maintain their "investment", otherwise they could be held as incompetent when their solution is proven to be ineffective. So, they have to show that it was a unanimous technical decision to do whatever they wanted in the first place.
I've actually worked on distributed systems that were so broken, I created a script to connect to prod and just create the report from my laptop. My manager offered to buy me a second laptop for running the report since it was easier than getting approval from the architects to get rid of the distributed report system (it only created that one report).
Yeah I had this problem at a couple of times in startup interviews where the interviewer asked a question I happened to have expertise in and then disagreed with my answer and clearly they didn't know all that much about it. It's ok, they did me a favor.
It may or may not be related that the places that this happened were always very ethnically monotone with narrow age ranges (nothing against any particular ethnic group, they were all different ethnic monotones)
Hah yeah, that's a funny one, being able to run circles around the interviewer.
> I explained, from first principals, how it fits, and received feedback along the lines of "our engineers agreed with your technical assessment, but that's not the answer we wanted, so we're going to pass". I've had this experience a good handful of times.
Probably a better outcome than being hired onto a team where everyone know you're technically correct but they ignore your suggestions for some mysterious (to you) reason.
Oh, absolutely.
Though I do not know the situation AT the firm you were interviewing in, if there is some unexpected increase in data volume OR say a job fails on certain days or you need to do some sort of historical data load (>= 6 months of 1 gig of data per day), the solution for running it on a single VM might not scale. BUT again, interviews are partially about problem solving, partially about checking compliance at least for IC roles (IN my anecdotal experience).
That being said yeah I too have done some similar stuff where some data engineering jobs could be run on a single VM but some jobs really did need spark, so the team decision was to fit the smaller square peg into a larger square peg and call it a da.In fact, I had spent time refactoring one particular pivotal job to run as an API deployed on our "macrolith" and integrated with our Airflow but it was rejected, so I stopped caring about engineering hygiene.
(>= 6 months of 1 gig of data per day)
> https://github.com/simdjson/simdjson
Was not aware of this but seems it is not there natively in Python,but seems cool. Will try out in future.
As other commentors pointed out, 1gb/day isn't a problem for storage and retroactive processing until you get to like, hundreds of years of data. You can chew through a few hundred TB of JSON data in a day, per core + nvme drive.
Regardless, storage and retroactive processing wasn't part of the problem. The problem was explicitly "parse json records as they come in, in a big batch, and increment some integers in a database".
I'm not going to figure out what the upper limit is on a single bare-metal machine, but you can be damn sure it's a metric fuck-ton higher than 1gb/day. You can do a lot with a 10TB of memory and 256 cores.
If we are talking about cloud VMs: sure, their cpu performance is atrocious and io can be horrible. This won't scale to infinity
But if there's the option to run this on a fairly modest dedicated machine, I'd be comfortable that any reasonable solution for pure ingest could scale to five orders of magnitude more data, and still about four orders of magnitude if we need to look at historical data. Of course you could scale well beyond that, but at that point it would be actual work
“6 months of 1 gig of data per day”
Then you would need an enormous 2TB storage device. \s
This kind of bad interview is rife. It’s often more a case of guess what the interviewer thinks than come up with a good solution.
I have a funny story I need to tell some day about how I could get a 4GB JSON loaded purely in the browser at some insane speed, by reading the bytes, identifying the "\n" then making a lookup table. It started low stakes but ended up becoming a multi-million internal project (in man-hours) that virtually everyone on the company used. It's the kind of project that if started "big" from the beginning, I'd bet anything it wouldn't have gotten so far.
Edit: I did try JSON.parse() first, which I expected to fail and it did fail BUT it's important that you try anyway.
Curious about which browser and hardware. In my experience browsers often choke on 0.5GB strings, or decide to kill the tab/proccess.
Yes, but I didn't read the full file, I kept the File reference and read the bytes in pages of 10MB IIRC to find all of the line break offsets. Then used those to slice and only read the relevant parts.
Every one of these cores is really fast, too!
yeah man, computers are completely bananacakes
They wanted to see if you would be on board with their embezzlement scheme.
Yes, yes but how are we going to get HA with one machine..
Fuck off ..you're 10 person startup with an MVP and no revenue stream needs customers first..
“there’s no wrong answer, we just want to see how you think” gaslighting in tech needs to be studied by the EEOC, Department of Labor, FTC, SEC, and Delaware Chancery Court to name a few
let’s see how they think and turn this into a paid interview
1gb of json u can do in one parse ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ big batches are fast
I agree - and it's not just what gets you promoted, but also what gets you hired, and what people look for in general.
You're looking for your first DevOps person, so you want someone who has experience doing DevOps. They'll tell you about all the fancy frameworks and tooling they've used to do Serious Business™, and you'll be impressed and hire them. They'll then proceed to do exactly that for your company, and you'll feel good because you feel it sets you up for the future.
Nobody's against it. So you end up in that situation, which even a basic home desktop would be more than capable of handling.
I have been the first (and only) DevOps person at a couple startups. I'm usually pretty guilty of NIH and wanting to develop in-house tooling to improve productivity. But more and more in my career I try to make boring choices.
Cost is usually not a huge problem beyond seed stage. Series A-B the biggest problem is growing the customer base so the fixed infra costs become a rounding error. We've built the product and we're usually focused on customer enablement and technical wins - proving that the product works 100% of the time to large enterprises so we can close deals. We can't afford weird flakiness in the middle of a POC.
Another factor I rarely see discussed is bus factor. I've been in the industry for over a decade, and I like to be able to go on vacation. It's nice to hand off the pager sometimes. Using established technologies makes it possible to delegate responsibility to the rest of the team, instead of me owning a little rats nest fiefdom of my own design.
The fact is that if 5k/month infra cost for a core part of the service sinks your VC backed startup, you've got bigger problems. Investors gave you a big pile of money to go and get customers _now_. An extra month of runway isn't going to save you.
The issue is when all the spending gets you is more complexity, maintenance, and you don't even get a performance benefit.
I once interviewed with a company that did some machine learning stuff, this was a while back when that typically meant "1 layer of weights from a regression we run overnight every night". The company asked how I had solved the complex problem of getting the weights to inference servers. I said we had a 30 line shell script that ssh'd them over and then mv'd them into place. Meanwhile the application reopened the file every so often. Zero problems with it ever. They thought I was a caveman.
I work for a small company with a handful of devs. We don't have a dedicated devops person, so I do it all. Everything is self-hosted. Been that way for years. But, yeah, if I go on vacation and something foes screwy, the business is hosed. However, even if it were hosted on AWS or elsewhere, it would not be any better. If anything, it may be worse. Instead of a person being well versed in standards based tech, they'd have to be an AWS expert. Why would we want that?
I have recently started using terraform/tofu and ansible to automate nearly all of the devops operations. We are at a point where Claude Code can use these tools and our existing configs to make configuration changes, debug issues by reviewing logs etc. It is much faster at debugging an issue than I am and I know our stuff inside and out.
I am beginning to think that AI will soon force people to rethink their cloud hosting strategy.
> They thought I was a caveman.
I identify as a caveman and I fucking love it. I build a 250k sloc C++ project hundreds of times a day with a 50 line bash script. Works every time, on any machine, everywhere.
Those scripts have logs, right? Log a hostname and path when they run. If no one thinks to look at logs, then there's a bigger problem going on than a one-off script.
That becomes a problem if you let the shell script mutate into an "everything" script that's solving tons of business problems. Or if you're reinventing kubernetes with shell scripts. There's still a place for simple solutions to simple problems.
You can literally have a 20 line Python script on cron that verifies if everything ran properly and fires off a PagerDuty if it didn't. And it looks like PagerDuty even supports heartbeat so that means even if your Python script failed, you could get alerted.
> Basically discoverability is where shell script fail
No, it's lack of documentation and no amount of $$$$/m enterprise AI solutions (R)(TM) would help you if there is no documentation.
Which is why you take the time to put usage docs in the repo README, make sure the script is packaged and deployed via the same methods that the rest of the company uses, and ensure that it logs success/failure conditions. That's been pretty standard at every organization I've been at my entire professional career. Anyone who can't manage that is going to create worse problems when designing/building/maintaining a more complex system.
In my experience, that $5k/month easily blows up into $100k/month
I've seen the ramifications of this "CV first" kind of engineering. Let's just say that it's a bad time when you're saddled with tech debt solely from a handful of influential people that really just wanted to work elsewhere.
I'm largely a stranger to the js world but from the outside it sure looks like projects are sharded so as to maximize npm contribution count
This. It is resume-driven development. Especially at startups where the engineers aren't compensated well enough or don't believe the produce can succeed.
I'm convinced k8s is a conspiracy by bigtech to suppress startups.
So its the EJBs of this age then?
I've spent my last 2 decades doing what's right, using the technologies that make sense instead of the techs that are cool on my resume.
And then I got laid off. Now, I've got very few modern frameworks on my resume and I've been jobless for over a year.
I'm feeling a right fool now.
I’m not hiring anymore, but when I was, all I wanted to find was someone that knew the fundamentals (and was a good ’attitude fit’ as per the similarly titled book). Sorry @wccrawford, I wish we could have more places that value slow, boring tech — aside from banking/insurance?
I have hung on to my job for many years now because of being in a similar situation in regards to trying to do the right thing and the fear of not being hire-able.
There is something wrong with the industry in chasing fads and group think. It has always been this way. Businesses chased Java in the late 90s, early 00s. They chased CORBA, WSDL, ESB, ERP and a host of other acronyms back in the day.
More recently, Data Lake, Big Data, Cloud Compute, AI.
Most of the executives I have met really have no clue. They just go with what is being promoted in the space because it offers a safety net. Look, we are "not behind the curve!". We are innovating along with the rest of the industry.
Interviews do not really test much for ability to think and reason. If you ran an entire ISP, if you figured out, on your own, without any help, how to shard databases, put in multiple layers of redundancy, caching... well, nobody cares now. You had to do it in AWS or Azure or whatever stack they have currently.
Sadly, I do not think it will ever be fixed. It is something intrinsic to human nature.
You can fix that with some open source work and home projects.
Then, in the interview, you say the first line of your posting here and the last and then add that you fixed the problem with intensive study.
Yeah, I probably need to push this harder now. I did actually join 1 project recently and got to the point that I felt I could add 1 more common thing to my resume, and that felt good. (Getting something done felt good, too.)
But getting to the point that I feel confident in certain frameworks is going to be hard. I'll figure it out somehow, I'm sure.
This exactly, actual doers are most of the time not rewarded meanwhile the AWS senior sucking Jeffs wiener specialist gets a job doing nothing but generating costs and leave behind more shit after his 3 years moving the ladder up to some even bigger bs pretend consulting job at an even bigger company. It's the same bs mostly for developers. I rewrite their library from TS to Rust and it gains them 50x performance increases and saves them 5k+ a week over all their compute now but nobody gives a shit and I do not have a certification for that to show off on my LinkedIn. Meanwhile my PM did nothing got paid to do some shity certificate and then gets the credit and the certificate and pisses of to the next bigger fish collecting another 100k more meanwhile I get a 1k bonus and a pat on the shoulder. Corporate late stage capitalism is complete fucking bs and I think about becoming a PM as well now. I feel like a fool and betrayed. Meanwhile they constantly threaten our Team to lay it off or outsource it as they say we are to expensive in a first world country and they easily find as good people in India etc. What a time to be alive.
> saves them 5k+ a week over all their compute
If you're willing and able to promote yourself internally, you can make people give a shit, or at least publicly claim they do. That's 260k+ per year, and even big businesses are going to care about that at some level, especially if it's something that can be replicated. Find 10 systems you can do that with, and it's 2.6m+ per year.
But, if you don't want to play the self-promotion game, yeah someone else is going to benefit from your work.
Try Rust? The system programming world isn't very bullshit-infested and Rust is trendy (which is good for a change), also employers can't realistically expect many years of Rust experience.
Need training and something to show? Contribute to some FOSS project.
> datasets that often fit entirely in RAM.
Yep, and a lot more datasets fit entirely into RAM now. Ignoring the recent price spikes for a moment, 128GB of RAM in a laptop is entirely achievable and not even the limit of what is possible. That was a pipe dream in 2014 when computers with only 4GB were still common. And of course for servers the max RAM is much higher, and in a lot of scenarios streaming data off a fast local SSD may be almost as good.
Oldie-but-goldy:
You don't really need to ignore the price spikes even. You can still buy more than 128Gb RAM on a machine with the $5k from one of the months.
I have actually worked in a company as a consultant data guy in a non technical team, I had a 128 GB PC 10 years back, and did everything with open source R then, and it worked ! The others thought it was wizardry
I’ve seen this pattern play out before. The pushback on simpler alternatives seems from a legitimate need for short time to market from the demand some of the equation and a lack of knowledge on the supply side. Every time I hear an engineer call something hacky, they are at the edge of their abilities.
[flagged]
systemd would be a derail even if you weren’t misrepresenting the situation at several levels. Experienced sysadmins in my experience were the ones pushing adoption because they had to clean up the messes caused by SysV’s design limitations and flaws, whereas in this case it’s a different scenario where the extra functionality is both unneeded and making it worse at the core task.
I think you’d have a more fruitful discussion if you stopped trying to call people noobs when they don’t agree with you.
For example, I’ve been dealing with SysV since the early 90s and while it’s gotten better since we no longer have to support the really bizarre Unix variants, my problem with init scripts wasn’t “indignity” but the lack of consistency across distributions and versions, which affects anyone shipping software professionally (“can’t do this easily until $distro upgrades coreutils”), and from an operator’s perspective using Python doesn’t make that better because instead of supporting one consistent thing you’d end up with the subset of features each application team felt like implementing, consistent only to the extent that they care to follow other projects. One virtue of systemd is that having a single common way to specify dependencies, restarts, customization, etc. avoids the ops people having to learn dozens of different variations of the same ideas and especially how to deal with their gaps. A few years back, a data center power outage at one place I worked really highlighted that: the systemd-based servers recovered quickly because they actually had working retries; all of the older stuff using SysV had to be manually reviewed because there were all kinds of problems like races on dependencies like DNS or NFS, retry logic which failed hard after a short period of time, failures because a stale PID file wasn’t removed, or cases where a vendor had simply never implemented retries in their init scripts. While in theory you can handle all of those in SysV most people never did.
After a couple decades of that, a lot of us don’t want to spend time on problems Microsoft solved in Bill Clinton’s first term.
It's entirely possible that both SysV init and systemd suck for different reasons. I'm still partial to systemd since it takes care of daemons and supervision in a way that init does not, but I'll take s6 or process-compose or even supervisord if I have to. Horses for courses.
Specifying system processes and their dependencies declaratively, rather than in a tangle of arbitrary executable code, is cleaner, more efficient, easier to use, and more auditable. And that's not even getting into the additional process management duties systemd assumes.
You can write arbitrary scripts into systemd... or like one step removed at most? That's not really a difference unless you have some nuance in mind that I don't.
I honestly do not like systemd, either. It is okay for managing processes but I wish it didn't spread into everything else in the machine.
Or if it must, could it actually work cohesively across their concepts? Would be nice to have an obvious and easy way to run Quadlet as its own user to isolate further, would be nice to have systemd-sysusers present in /etc/subuid so they can run containers.
I like what they are doing with atomic distros. It would be great to have a single file declarative setup for something like running a containerized reverse HTTP proxy with an isolated user. Instead of "atomic" but you manually edit files in /etc after install.
Eternal September
Best reply my LLM had. Sorry.
+5 Troll
Worse in some ways, better in others. DuckDB is often an excellent tool for this kind of task. Since it can run parallelized reads I imagine it's often faster than command line tool, and with easier to understand syntax
More importantly, you have your data in a structured format that can be easily inspected at any stage of the pipeline using a familiar tool: SQL.
I've been using this pattern (scripts or code that execute commands against DuckDB) to process data more recently, and the ability to do deep investigations on the data as you're designing the pipeline (or when things go wrong) is very useful. Doing it with a code-based solution (read data into objects in memory) is much more challenging to view the data. Debugging tools to inspect the objects on the heap is painful compared to being able to JOIN/WHERE/GROUP BY your data.
Yep. It’s literally what SQL was designed for, your business website can running it… the you write a shell script to also pull some data on a cron. It’s beautiful
IMHO the main point of the article is that typical unix command pipeline pipeline IS parallelized already.
The bottleneck in the example was maxing out disk IO, which I don't think duckdb can help with.
Pipes are parallelized when you have unidirectional data flow between stages. They really kind of suck for fan-out and joining though. I do love a good long pipeline of do-one-thing-well utilities, but that design still has major limits. To me, the main advantage of pipelines is not so much the parallelism, but being streams that process "lazily".
On the other hand, unix sockets combined with socat can perform some real wizardry, but I never quite got the hang of that style.
Pipelines are indeed one flow, and that works most of the time, but shell scripts make parallel tasks easy too. The shell provides tools to spawn subshells in the background and wait for their completion. Then there are utilities like xargs -P and make -j.
UNIX provides the Makefile as go-to tool if a simple pipeline is not enough. GNUmake makes this even more powerful by being able to generate rules on-the-fly.
If the tool of interest works with files (like the UNIX tools do) it fits very well.
If the tool doesn't work with single files I have had some success in using Makefiles for generic processing tasks by creating a marker file that a given task was complete as part of the target.
I think it’s not so much engineers actually setting up a distributed compute, as it is dropping a credit card into a paid cloud service, which behind the scenes sets up a distributed compute cluster and bills you for the compute in an obfuscated way, then gives a 20% discount + SSO if you sign up for annual enterprise plan.
This kind of practice is insidious because early on, they charge $20/month to get started on the first 100mb of log ingestion, and you can have it up and running in 30 seconds with a credit card. Who would turn that down?
Revisit that set up 2 years later and it’s turned into a 60k/y behemoth that no one can unwind
On the contrary, the key message from the blog post is not to load the entire dataset to RAM unless necessary. The trick is to stream when the pattern works. This is how our field routinely works with files over 100GB.
Yep. The cloud providers however always get paid, and get paid twice on Sunday when the dev-admins forget to turn stuff off.
It’s the same story as always, just it used to be Oracle certified tech, now it’s the AWS tech certified to ensure you pay Amazon.
For a dasaset that live in RAM, the best solution are DuckDB or clickhouse-local. Using SQLish data is easier than a bunch of bash script and really powerful.
Though ClickHouse is not limited to a single machine or local data processing. It's a full-featured distributed database.
Another alternative is Exasol that is factors (>10x) faster than Clickhouse and scales much better for complex analytics workloads that joins data. There is a free edition for personal use without data limit that can run on any number of cluster nodes.
If you just want to read and analyze single table data, then Clickhouse or DuckDB are perfect.
Disclaimer: I work at Exasol
This reminds me of this reddit comment from a long time ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/8cckg/comment/...
Airflow and dbt serve a real purpose.
The issue is you can run sub tib jobs on a few small/standard instances with better tooling. Spark and Hadoop are for when you need multiple machines.
Dbt and airflow let you represent your data as a DAG and operate on that, which is critical if you want to actually maintain and correct data issues and keep your data transforms timely.
edit: a little surprised at multiple downvotes. My point is, you can run airflow and dbt on small instances, and you can do all your data processing on small instances with tools like duckdb or polars.
But it is very useful to use a tool like dbt that allows you to re-build and manage your data in a clear way, or a tool like airflow which lets you specify dependencies for runs.
After say 30 jobs or so, you'll find that being able to re-run all downstreams of a model starts to payoff.
Agreed, airflow and dbt have literally nothing to do with the size of the data and can be useful, or overkill, at any size. Dbt just templates the query strings we use to query the data and airflow just schedules when we query the data and what we do next. The fact that you can fit the whole dataset in duckdb without issue is kind of separate to these tools, we still need to be organised about how and when we query it.
dbt is super useful for building a dag and managing pieces of it that update on different schedules. eg with one dataset that's refreshed monthly and another daily, you can only rebuild the daily one unless the slower-cadence input has a new update.
> a robust bash script
These hardly exist in practice.
But I get what you mean.
Yoy don't. It's bash only because the parent process is bash, but otherwise it's all grep, sort, tr, cut and othe textutils piped together.
awk can do some heavy lifting too if the environment is too locked down to import a kitchen sink of python modules.
Our lot burns a fortune on snowflake every month but no one is using it. Not enough data is being piped into it and the shitty old reports we have which just run some SQL work fine.
It looked good on someone’s resume and that was it. They are long gone.
Because developers are incentivized to have marketable software skills. Not marketable build things that are cheap and profitable skills.
Moore's law was supposed to make it simpler and cheaper to do more computationally expensive tasks. But in the meantime, everyone kept inflating the difficulty of a task faster than Moore could keep up.
I think some of this is because of the incredible amounts of capital that startups seem to be able to acquire. If startups had to demonstrate profitability before they were given any money to scale, the story would be very different I think.
> because setting up a 'Modern Data Stack' is what gets you promoted
It’s not just that, it’s that you better know their specific tech stack to even get hired. It’s a lot of dumb engineering leaders pretending that AWS, Azure and Snowflake are such wildly different ecosystems that not having direct experience in theirs is disqualifying (for pure DE roles, not talking broader sysadmin).
The entire data world is rife with people who don’t have the faintest clue what they’re doing, who really like buzzwords, and who have never thought about their problem space critically.
Well. I try for a middle ground. I am currently ditching both airflow and dbt. In Snowflake, I use scheduled tasks that call stored procedures. The stored procedures do everything I need to do. I even call external APIs like Datadog’s and Okta’s and pull down the logs directly into snowflake. I do try to name my stored procedures with meaningful names. I also add generous comments including urls back to the original story.
I forgot to mention in Snowflake, besides chron scheduled tasks, you can add dependent tasks that only run if the previous task succeeded. I have 40 tasks chained together that way. Each of my task calls a stored procedure. Within each procedure, I have Try Catch and a catch-all clause that Raiseerror.
"I've seen startups burning $5k/mo on distributed compute clusters to process <10GB of daily logs, purely because setting up a 'Modern Data Stack' is what gets you promoted, while writing a robust bash script is seen as 'unscalable' or 'hacky'."
Also seen strange responses from HN commenters when it's mentioned that bash is large and slow compared to ash and bash is better suited for use as an interactive shell whereas ash is better suited for use as a non-interactive shell, i.e., a scripting shell
I also use ash (with tabcomplete) as an interactive shell for several reasons
ENG are building what MGMT has told them to build for, the scale they want, not the scale they have
I see this at work too. They are ingesting a few GB per day but running the data through multiple systems. So the same functionality we delivered with a python script within a week now takes months to develop and constantly breaks.
On the other hand, now we have duckdb for all the “small big data”, and a slew of 10-100x faster than Java equivalent stuff in the data x rust ecosystem, like DataFusion, Feldera, ByteWax, RisingWave, Materialize etc
The point of the article is those don’t actually work that well.
I guarantee those rust projects have spent more time playing with rust and library design than the domain problem they are trying to solve.
None of the systems I mentioned existed at the time the article was published. I think the author would love duckdb which is a very speedy CLI SQL thingy that reads and writes data in all sorts of formats. It fits in great with other Unix CLI stuff.
Many of the projects I mentioned you could see as a response to OP and the 2015 “Scalability, but at what COST?” paper which benchmarked distributed systems to see how many cores they need to beat a single thread. (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26925449)
Yeah im a big fan of SQLite :). But at analytical workloads like aggregating every row, DuckDB will outperform SQLite by a wide margin. SQLite is great stuff but it’s not a very good data Swiss Army knife because it’s very focused on a single core competency: embeddable OLTP with a simple codebase. DuckDB can read/write many more formats from local disk or via a variety of network protocols. DuckDB also embeds SQLite so you can use it with SQLite DBs as inputs or outputs.
> they were doing distributed compute wrong but now they have it figured out?
Like anything the future is here but it’s unevenly distributed. Frank McSherry, the first author of “Scalability but at what COST” wrote Timely Dataflow as his answer to that question. ByteWax is based on Timely as is Materialize. Stuff is still complex but these more modern systems with performance as their goal are orders of magnitude better than the Hadoop era Java stuff.
I call BS on those Rust 10-100x claims. Rust and Java are roughly equal in performance. It is just that there are a lot of old NoSQL frameworks in Java which are trash. I also checked out those companies, some of which are doing interesting stuff. None claim things are 100x faster because of Rust. You just hurt your credibility when you say such clearly false things. That's how you end up with a Hadoop cluster which is 236x slower than a batch script.
PS None of the companies you linked seem to be using a datapath architecture which is the key to the highest level of performance
It wasn’t my intention to say “this stuff is 100x faster because rust”. DuckDB is C++. My intention was to draw distinction between the Java/Hadoop era of cluster and data systems, and the 2020s era of cluster and data systems, much of which has designs informed by stuff like this article / “Scalability but at what COST?”. I guess instead of “faster” I should say “more efficient”.
For example, the Kafka ecosystem tends to use Avro as the data transfer serialization, which needs a copy/deserialization step before it can be used in application logic. Newer stream systems like Timely tend to use zero-copy capable data transfer formats (timely’s is called Abomination) but it’s the same idea in CapnProto or Flatbuffers - it’s infinity faster to not copy the data as you decode! In my experience this kind of approach is more accessible in systems languages like C++ or Rust, and harder to do in GC languages where the default approach to memory layout and memory management is “don’t worry about it.”
happy middle ground: https://www.definite.app/ (I'm the founder).
datalake (DuckLake), pipelines (hubspot, stripe, postgres), and dashboards in a single app for $250/mo.
marketing/finance get dashboards, everyone else gets SQL + AI access. one abstraction instead of five, for a fraction of your Snowflake bill.
If airflow is a layer of abstraction something is wrong.
Yes it is an additional layer, but if your orchestration starts concerning itself with what it is doing then something is wrong. It is not a layer on top of other logic, it is a single layer where you define how to start your tasks, how to tell when something is wrong, and when to run them.
If you don't insist on doing heavy compitations within the airflow worker it is dirt cheap. If it's something that can easily be done in bash or python you can do it within the worker as long as you're willing to throw a minimal amount of hardware at it.
Here’s the thing though, most companies work with small data. The distribution of data set size follows a power law which means that few engineers get to work with petabyte sized datasets. That said, the job market definitely incentivizes people to have that kind of experience on their resume if they want to keep progressing in salary. This incentivizes over engineering.
> the job market definitely incentivizes people to have that kind of experience on their resume
Yeah, this is sadly often true, but it's also another trap that people don't have to fall into.
I've been involved with hiring data engineers, and I see experience with distributed computing way more often than I see knowledge of simple profiling and debugging tools. But I'd personally value the latter a lot more when interviewing.
Companies that hire for skills they don't need are of course perpetuating this problem, but they're also paying a big "tax" in the sense that they're not hiring for the skills they actually do need.
yes, but engineers also suck at communicating costs and benefits (and understanding them).
Absolutely, when I worked at (semi-well-known unicorn) a half-dozen years ago on the data-engineering team the manager told me "Hey we want to use spark next quarter, that's a huge initiative."
And I immediately asked, "in what capacity?" And the answer was don't-know/doesn't-matter, it's just important that we can say we're using it. I really wish I understood where that was coming from (his manager resume-building? somebody getting a kickback?)
That's when you rewrite your codebase in the SPARK dialect of Ada and play innocent when your management questions you about it.
They'll never say it's resume building or kickbacks, they'll invent some technically sounding and/or business reason to achieve the same result.
The most interesting part is that you can say you're doing/using something entirely independent of if you actually are. Sure, that's a lie, but so is only using something so you can say you're using it (sure, they admitted to you that was the reason, but that won't be the reason they put on LinkedIn).