1) Put JS in maintenance mode, don’t add any language features, only runtime
2) TS becomes the official mainline, whoever doesn’t like types can just keep writing as they did before, because valid JS is valid TS
Problem solved, it’s not that difficult.
Why is this worth doing? What wrong with the status quo? The author does not give any examples of Oracle threatening people for using the JavaScript (tm) name.
They have linked to an example from one of the blog posts: https://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/14vnipl/rust_f...
The example is indeed two years old. I also couldn't find any point in the article that explains why this is worth doing.
I actually think that people should rather use EcmaScript name instead of JavaScript, because it's a way better name (much less confusing, given that this lang doesn't have anything to do with Java anyway). I wish Oracle started suing people to force everyone to use the better name.
> because it's a way better name (much less confusing, given that this lang doesn't have anything to do with Java anyway).
Probably if we were in the early 2000s this could have been a battle worth fighting. But considering we're in 2025 and probably more people are aware of JavaScript than Java at this point, even when you're deep in enterprise-land, I'm not sure it'd be less confusing.
Anyways, you're about two decades too late to this discussion :/
> probably more people are aware of JavaScript than Java at this point
All the same, I probably get as many calls from recruiters to fill Java positions as I do JS positions. I've never used the former, and explaining it is always awkward!
The irony is I belive the JavaScript creator wtnted to latch to Java's popularity to called it JavaScript and now both Java and JavaScript are owned by Oracle and they want the name but not want to change is to ECMAScript, it's real official name.
If you read the original JavaScript press release ( https://web.archive.org/web/20020808041248/http://wp.netscap... ), it's mainly intended as a language to write glue code so Java applets (where the real application logic would go) can interact with a webpage:
> With JavaScript, an HTML page might contain an intelligent form that performs loan payment or currency exchange calculations right on the client in response to user input. A multimedia weather forecast applet written in Java can be scripted by JavaScript to display appropriate images and sounds based on the current weather readings in a region. A server-side JavaScript script might pull data out of a relational database and format it in HTML on the fly. A page might contain JavaScript scripts that run on both the client and the server. On the server, the scripts might dynamically compose and format HTML content based on user preferences stored in a relational database, and on the client, the scripts would glue together an assortment of Java applets and HTML form elements into a live interactive user interface for specifying a net-wide search for information.
> "Programmers have been overwhelmingly enthusiastic about Java because it was designed from the ground up for the Internet. JavaScript is a natural fit, since it's also designed for the Internet and Unicode-based worldwide use," said Bill Joy, co-founder and vice president of research at Sun. "JavaScript will be the most effective method to connect HTML-based content to Java applets."
This was all actually implemented. JavaScript functions could call Java applet methods and vice versa (see https://docs.oracle.com/javase/8/docs/technotes/guides/deplo... ). Of course over time everyone abandoned applets because of all the security problems, and JavaScript became a good enough language to write application logic directly in it. Still, there's more meaning behind the name than it just being a cynical marketing move.
The language now called Groovy would have been JavaScript if the name wasn’t already taken.
> Of course over time everyone abandoned applets because of all the security problems,
Haha, or because it froze the whole browser for a few seconds upon loading. Unlike Macromedia Flash by the way.
I had a flash ad take 100% of my cpu back around 2005 or so. It wasn’t even trying to be malicious, just a poorly made ad. That was the day I stopped allowing any site exceptions in my ad blocker.
Of course 100% of that cpu is probably 1/10 of one core on any of my modern machines, so an ordinary and not-broken ad laden page routinely eats several times as many cycles now. Progress!
Well the creator wanted to call it livescript. The creating company (Netscape) wanted the Java association.
> and now both Java and JavaScript are owned by
"Now" makes it sound like this is a recent acquisition of the JavaScript trademark. Oracle obtained it in 2009 as a result of the Sun purchase and if I remember correctly, Sun initially was issued the trademark back in the 90s sometimes.
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That boat sailed soooo many years ago tho. Oracle has no business claiming javascript as a trademark.
Or let Oracle trial everyone for the number of processors they have on their JavaScript machines.
Oracle is in the business of bullying others using their big legal dept.
We all know this.
> Oracle has no business claiming javascript as a trademark.
You think so. That's okay. But ultimately it is up to a judge to decide. Right?
I agree with the EcmaScript. Just ditch the stupid name. Get all the petition signers to agree an move on. Fuck Oracle. Fuck JavaScript (it's nothing like Java anyway).
> But ultimately it is up to a judge to decide. Right?
I think we are getting a rude awakening about what is legal versus what is actually right are not always the same thing. There are some the horrible, horrible things here and the laws need updating, as opposed to us simply saying this is for a judge to decide and there is nothing else we can do.
I am ok with ditching the JavaScript name. I understand this cuts the problem entirely. However, there are other problems we have that we can't bypass so easily.
We need copyright terms to be much reduced. We need CFAA fully repealed and not replaced by anything. We need to abolish software patents. There is a lot we need to do that will likely take a century to accomplish and that's likely being too optimistic.
What we can't do is leave everything up to the judges because clearly even if we get a favorable ruling today, the precedent can be removed by another stroke of a pen.
> I think we are getting a rude awakening about what is legal versus what is actually right are not always the same thing.
I'm not sure who "we" are here (Americans perhaps?), but humanity as a whole have known this for a long time, and acted accordingly. This is why presidents in some countries have the right to pardon people, as just one very evident example. That the USA exists as a country today is another example, which at the time when they were trying to create it, was clearly illegal, but since winners write history, still a "good" action.
The the laws aren't 100% unambiguous and strict is also another example, so there is room for interpretation, as something can be "by the book legal" but because of the clear evil motivations and "ignoring the spirit of the law", still be illegal. Of course, highly dependent on the country and lots of counter-examples.
Who are "people"? How would all of this start?
In terms of standard, the specs already use "ECMAScript" and don't even mention JavaScript (https://github.com/tc39/ecma262/), although TC39 website does use it frequently. I guess they could officially recommend people stop using "JavaScript", but I doubt they care.
Otherwise, the petitioner Deno here is only a small part of the ecosystem and barely controls anything (and really nobody other than TC39 controls anything, which is good). They (or anyone else) can't just shout "stop saying JavaScript!" and expect people to follow.
Not to mention JavaScript is a simple, easy to pronounce word compared to ECMAScript despite the baggage, which is probably why they chose it in the first place.
Let's say the "JavaScript" name is officially deprecated somehow. People will continue to use the name for as long as it exists.
So Deno's petition tackles these problems, addresses the root cause and appears to be legally viable. That is the "right thing to do" here. Avoiding the name does not solve the problem. It never does.
But everyone already calls it JS. I think the transition would have been so much easier if the official name started with "J".
Just rename it to "JS" (jay-ess) and forget about having the letters stand for anything.
JECMAScript
JuicyScript
JabbaScript
Like JunoScript or JangoScript? JavaScript is just very outdated ECMAScript.
How is it outdated?
I guess the argument is that technically JavaScript is still stuck on version 1 or some other low number. The language that has evolved is ECMAScript.
soulJaboy Script
Our trade has a solid tradition of terrible names for programming languages. They are ALL bad. The whole Ekmuhscrip.js schism fits perfectly. Yes, this is our circus, and these are our monkeys.
But some of us get to be pretty looking penguins in this circus of ours.
What we use nowadays is actually ECMAScript and not JavaScript. We just call it JavaScript.
If enough people call it JavaScript, it is JavaScript. Yes really. Even in a legal sense (and deno are arguing this is already the case).
EcmaScript just sounds icky.
It’s simply not a better name. If it was, it would’ve caught on by now.
> people should rather use EcmaScript name instead of JavaScript
Or go back to calling it “LiveScript”
I'm not changing all the extensions on my files :-)
Just go with the flow - call it js.
> I actually think that people should rather use EcmaScript name instead of JavaScript
Take it to Twitter
It’s unfortunate that it sounds like some sort of skin disease.
Switch everything natively to Typescript.
Last phase of embrace, extend, extinguish eh?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguis...
Apart from anything else, ECMAScript is a mouthful! Eeh-cee-emm-ay-script. Five syllables.
Don't most people just pronounce it Eck-ma?
Since the association renamed itself to “Ecma International” in 1994, I believe we can just call it Eck-mah-script.
It should've been called AcmeScript. The association with Wile E. Coyote would've been fitting.
And it sounds like a skin condition.
Flaky when under pressure? Irritating results? Sites look and feel better without it?
Sounds appropriate to me.
It's a genuinely terrible name.
Maybe it should just be pronounced eck-ma-script so it's got the same number of syllables as ja-va-script.
It is pronounced like that, typically
I've only ever heard it pronounced as "EcmaScript" not E-C-M-A Script"
They now have GoFundMe where they are soliciting donations for a discovery phase of a <strike>patent</strike> trademark cancellation request.
They have just 50k USD out of 200k USD they are raising. (No idea if that's appropriate; from the outside, it seems like a lot of money, but also they are fighting Oracle which has unlimited money, so, yeah)
For some reason it's not linked in the page itself.
https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-challenge-oracles-javascr...
Not to nit-pic, but it's a Trademark cancellation - not a patent. The confusion probably came from the fact it's before the US Patent and Trademark Office.
Why waste all that money? You can't beat City Hall, and Oracle is basically the company run by the mayor's friend in this analogy.
> You can't beat City Hall
This broadcast was brought to you by the Better Things Aren’t Possible Party
Because trying to do the impossible has gone down so well in history and politics.
Stop spreading defeatism. Either channel these energies into something better, or just get out of the way.
"Defeatism" is yet another shibboleth for people who refuse to accept reality. Wasting your money on things you can't change when you could be spending it on things you can is true "defeatism", as it accomplishes nothing.
I don't care about most ridiculous "battles" people are trying to wage, let alone this one, I was bluntly saying there are better things to spend money on if you do wish to "win battles". You're allowed to criticize things without offering a solution, especially if you don't care all that much about the topic at hand.
As a sidenote, Regarding your comment on my perceived lack of pragmatism, I'd point you to a definition: "dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations", which I'd say my comment very much was. Winning against a company that has succeeded in part due to government favouritism isn't realistic.
> In which case: maybe take your own advice and give up on changing anyone's mind?
I post on HN because it is a public forum and I wished to share my thoughts, not to change people's minds.
Speaking of JavaScript's evolution - I've been building a music player (muz11.com) and it's remarkable how far we've come. The Web Audio API, MediaSession for lock screen controls, smooth animations via requestAnimationFrame... all running client-side with no framework, just vanilla JS. Thirty years ago this would have required a desktop app and probably a record label deal.
The irony is that 'freeing' JavaScript from Oracle's trademark might matter less than freeing ourselves from the framework churn. The platform itself is incredibly capable now.
> Thirty years ago this would have required a desktop app and probably a record label deal.
And that would have been just fine.
"If you do not act, we will challenge your ownership by filing a petition for cancellation with the USPTO."
So, just go ahead and do it already. Your cute letter isn't going to change anything.
Don't anthropomorphise the lawnmower.
The context:
> Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmower. Don't fall into that trap about Oracle. — Brian Cantrill (https://youtu.be/-zRN7XLCRhc?t=33m1s)
Came here for this. Was not disappoint.
This is pointless. Oracle is not a democracy, it's a lawnmower.
Well, it's not up to Oracle. It is up to the US government (USPTO).
Which you could make a strong case for also not being a democracy and rather a lawnmower... But I digress.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. We should just stop using the term JavaScript. It's a bad choice of name and always has been.
It's caused way too much confusion over the years making people wrongly associate it with Java. My guess would be that associations exactly why Oracle doesn't want to give it up.
I would like to say go back to the original name of LiveScript from before Netscape tried to woo Sun, but the name LiveScript has been co-opted.
Something else with a J would probably be the least painful. JScript is permanently associated with Microsoft's terrible IE implementation. I offer up "JaScript" as it sounds largely like JavaScript but said with a drawl while retaining "JS".
Heck, I'll call it RCMAScript if that's what it takes. I'd rather not, but it's better than "JavaScript"
Let's stop calling it "JavaScript" entirely. "JS" is right there.
YavaScript
I'd rather start a completely new, better language for the browser.
Official name is ECMAScript. Maybe it's time to drop "Javascript".
Can they drop javascript trademark without threating Java trademark?
I guess that's the main issue. A lot of open source projects fell into this pit, when they put a related trademark into their name. Naming something OpenFastFirefox or iPhoneScript would cause a lot of trademark issues.
i wish we instead dropped js for something vastly more sane.
Amen to that (will never happen though).
While I completely agree with the sentiment, there are 100 million reasons why it will never happen. Having dealt with Oracle for over 20 years, I have seen their predatory relationship with their customers. They will hold onto this trademark in the hope that they can somehow monetize it.
At some point they will approach companies, likely tech companies that produce a product or offering that can't be described without using the word "JavaScript". They will offer a "convenient" licensing agreement of $50,000 per year for the use of their trademark.
They used this playbook with Java, an easier path because they had something more substantial than a trademark, but the approach will be the same. https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/165kzxg/oraclejav...
As Oracle's debt problems mount, the company seems increasingly likely to weaponize this trademark against companies—despite otherwise showing little interest in the word. https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/us/w...
Oh, this reminds me of the horror days when Oracle deliberately rolled out spyware (Ask Toolbar) in the JRE (Java Runtime Environment) installer, that corporate admins and developers/testers inadvertently installed on millions of PCs.
Oracle never apologised for this sudden hijack (of an executable that was trusted and used by millions of IT people) and malicious behavior (no prior information given by Oracle for this malpractice), if I recall right.
I am sure that disaster was a wake up call for many developers and corporations to move away from Java dependency.
Anyone reasonable would agree that Oracle does not even gain anything for their products by holding the trademark. They have zero benefit, except of course occasional bullying.
Don't underestimate the benefits of the power of bullying. Just look at the current US administration.
Why in 2025 can we not ship a statically typed high performance language for browsers?
Because every time someone proposes it the immediate follow up is “which language?”, which everyone argues about until they’re exhausted and give up.
Which is why WebAssembly is the right answer.
Dart is a statically typed high performance language intended for the browser. For a short time you could run Dart in the Chrome browser - as a JavaScript alternative. They then decided it was better to transpile to JS... JavaScript is already strictly typed and safe, but the dynamic nature makes it difficult to optimize. So I think it's a weird decision to transpile to JS.
Rust runs quite well today via WebAssembly. Continuing to improve interop between Web API / WASM / language runtimes seems like a good route that allows people to use the language they prefer against shared Web APIs.
Because there is no consensus on what that should be, and vendors have so little motivation they just outsource most browser development to Google.
Developers always on their high horse, if after years of trying different options it didnt happen, maybe that means it's not what the world wants or need?
> Why in 2025 can we not ship a statically typed high performance language for browsers?
Which one?
Imagine if this effort was spent on solving more pressing problems, like the recent yet another security kerfuffle, or the overloaded maintainers whom everyone depends on but reliably fails to support.
Call the language JS, everyone already understands it, it's used on all the logos because it's short, we already another popular language with a very compact name (Go, which is harder to look up without mangling its name, and it's still doing fine).
> Go, which is harder to look up without mangling its name
don't get me started on typescript. Until recently I had to use its full name when googling something
exactly, just a whole lot of haters got nothing better to do.
>Imagine if this effort was spent on solving more pressing problems,
Are you suggesting that Ryan Dahl's contribution has been less than satisfactory so far?
Seems sensible to me, Oracle doesn't seem to use the trademark.
But also, what are the consequences of Oracle having the trademark, why is this an issue?
Important to remember Oracle is one of the most evil tech companies, and Larry Ellison is your prototypical evil villain. Oracle CEO Catz recently said "We are not flexible regarding our mission, and our commitment to Israel is second to none" and "if they don't agree with our mission to support the State of Israel, then maybe we aren't the right company for them".
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TS trademark is owned by Microsoft.
That would be a case of out of the frying pan into the fire. Not really better.
Call it ES2026 officially and let other people devalue MS' trademark as they refer to that (and later versions) as TS.
...and we'll have another API warfa^H^H^H^H lawsuit that we had for Java.
Same as Go and Google then. Is the ownership of the trademark of the name/logo of a FOSS language really that big a deal?
That's the entire issue here: JS is a FOSS language and they don't like that Oracle owns the trademark.